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Neumann KH420 vs Revel PerformaBe F228be or F328be

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echopraxia

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Nah I agree completely, the price is ridiculous. I think they might be worth it if you have a particularly difficult room with a lot of mid-bass issues, but other than that probably not.
Actually to put it into perspective, I could buy 18x Rythmik F12 12” subwoofers for the price of a set of W371A’s. You could literally line the walls with subwoofers, or have a ring of subwoofers surrounding every seat position :D

This is why I find the idea of a tower speaker with lots of midbass power appealing, for home theater or just ultimate music listening experience; it’s hard to beat when combined with the subwoofer pricing available in the US. I know that still won’t achieve the more controlled midbass directivity of the W371A, but I guess it’s hard for me to understand how important that really is.
 

Vintage57

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The Neumann KH420 have been simply amazing.
I would love to see how they measure on the Klippel.
I would contribute to shipping costs.
I live in Canada and it’s too much hassle crossing borders.
 

richard12511

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I do (I have two Purifi 1ET400A amp mono-blocks). But I don’t want this to necessarily bias the choice for a passive speaker. So for the sake of comparison, we can pretend that amp or DSP or any other signal chain component is not a factor to worry about; all that matters is sound quality, dynamics / max SPL, etc.

Dutch & Dutch 8C would definitely be an interesting option to consider, if the dynamics capabilities match that of the KH420. While it has a good amount of combined woofer area, it seems the small-ish cabinet size would certainly constrain this potential a bit. One other thing that worries me about the 8C though is the relatively narrow beam width, which I don’t generally like. I prefer mid or wide beam speakers.
I think the 8c is wider than the 420, but I could be wrong about that. 8c is very similar in width to the 8351b.
 

HooStat

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As much as I want to hear what you think of the W371a, I agree with @Sancus.

I have heard that it is hard to get some of the Revel models. If true, it might help make your decision.

Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong. You might just pick the one that you are most interested in.
 

GD Fan

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I know, another useless hypothetical speaker comparison thread :)

However, I think this comparison is really interesting because the Revel F228be and Neumann KH420 are very similar in price, seem to have very similar woofer displacement volume, and both seem to measure extremely well (though we don’t have Klippel data for the KH420 yet as far as I know).

This hypothetical comparison is useful to me at least, as I contemplate what my next speaker purchase will be to replace my Salon2’s, which I sold to simplify logistics of moving around quite a bit over the last year (which in retrospect was a good choice since in my most recent (and final) move to California, the movers delivered almost everything in damaged condition).

View attachment 150830

View attachment 150829

Any thoughts on this comparison? Anybody around here who might have KH420’s who could arrange to have them Klippell measured some time? :) If so and shipping cost is an issue, maybe a few of us could donate to make it happen.
Every move to California should be the final move. I learned this the hard way (truth be told, it was evident all along).
 

Frgirard

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The Neumann KH420 have been simply amazing.
I would love to see how they measure on the Klippel.
I would contribute to shipping costs.
I live in Canada and it’s too much hassle crossing borders.
In France, the distributor, through a reseller, lends models intended for this use.
In USA?
 

Frgirard

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I know, another useless hypothetical speaker comparison thread :)

However, I think this comparison is really interesting because the Revel F228be and Neumann KH420 are very similar in price, seem to have very similar woofer displacement volume, and both seem to measure extremely well (though we don’t have Klippel data for the KH420 yet as far as I know).

This hypothetical comparison is useful to me at least, as I contemplate what my next speaker purchase will be to replace my Salon2’s, which I sold to simplify logistics of moving around quite a bit over the last year (which in retrospect was a good choice since in my most recent (and final) move to California, the movers delivered almost everything in damaged condition).

View attachment 150830

View attachment 150829

Any thoughts on this comparison? Anybody around here who might have KH420’s who could arrange to have them Klippell measured some time? :) If so and shipping cost is an issue, maybe a few of us could donate to make it happen.

No one can replace your listening. There are many good speakers, it becomes a matter of taste and feelings. My feeling was K+H O300 and since 2017 KH420, K+H O410 has been discontinued and nowhere to be found on the used market.

the F208 was in my short list in 2017 but Revel in France in 2017, the obstacle course to find a listening. A loan is impossible
 
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aac

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I'd take single large woofer over multiple smaller if given a choice "blind" and space isn't a problem.
 

Pearljam5000

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The 1237A is also a good option ;)
1237APM01 (1).jpg
 

thewas

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How is it that the fabric-dome tweeter of the Neumann is competitive with the super-high-tech berylllium dome of the Revel?
Just for completeness, all Neumann tweeters are from metal, not fabric, same as on most solid engineering based companies like Genelec, Revel/JBL, KEF etc.
 

Absolute

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Exotic materials in speakers is almost always just “for show”. They may have some advantages, but all that really matters is the measurable performance achieved in the end.

In terms of max SPL, it’s harder to say. Neumann shows measurements where the KH420 achieves 110db with 3% THD at 10khz. I don’t know if there is any similar measurement for the Revel tweeters.
At some point frequency response itself becomes "good enough". Then we need to look at driver decay (energy storage), distortion, break-ups, thermal effects etc to separate qualitative differences.
I'm not aware of any published research into the psycho-acoustics of the importance of such factors, so we have to rely on subjective experience.

An eye-opener for me personally was comparing the stock D2430k JBL M2 compression driver to a large-format Beryllium driver from 18sound.
Calibrated to the same flat on-axis response, the difference in clarity and softness was obvious in favor of the Beryllium-driver.
Not a day-and-night difference, but clear improvement.
However, comparing different tweeters/membranes on the same application criteria is one thing, comparing different tweeters across different design considerations is something else entirely.

Comparing a large constant directivity design with a gradually increasing DI index design on theory alone is difficult and will most likely be an philosophical exercise where the result will be determined by whatever fits your beliefs the best.

I like constant directivity as a concept and I like big, burly speakers. Buy the Revels because I'm not an influencer :D
 

Laserjock

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Maybe you’re both correct, alloy being metal and fabric being a woven fiber.?

metal fibers woven into a fabric although I’m not sure about the advantage of this and not in the traditional sense of metal done tweeters.
 

al2002

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Hi echopraxia, sorry to hear about shipping damage. Hope you had everything insured. Did the Genelecs get damaged too?

To answer your question: I'd go for the Neumann 420. I was very impressed by what I heard at the Neumann AES demo some years ago. If you go to the Neumann web site an english translation of the Sound & Recording test of the 420 is available. It measures very well.

Hope this helps. Best Regards.


Edit: As was suggested earlier, you can always add woofers later if you feel the need.


I know, another useless hypothetical speaker comparison thread :)

However, I think this comparison is really interesting because the Revel F228be and Neumann KH420 are very similar in price, seem to have very similar woofer displacement volume, and both seem to measure extremely well (though we don’t have Klippel data for the KH420 yet as far as I know).

This hypothetical comparison is useful to me at least, as I contemplate what my next speaker purchase will be to replace my Salon2’s, which I sold to simplify logistics of moving around quite a bit over the last year (which in retrospect was a good choice since in my most recent (and final) move to California, the movers delivered almost everything in damaged condition).

View attachment 150830

View attachment 150829

Any thoughts on this comparison? Anybody around here who might have KH420’s who could arrange to have them Klippell measured some time? :) If so and shipping cost is an issue, maybe a few of us could donate to make it happen.
 
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thewas

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echopraxia

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Hi echopraxia, sorry to hear about shipping damage. Hope you had everything insured. Did the Genelecs get damaged too?

To answer your question: I'd go for the Neumann 420. I was very impressed by what I heard at the Neumann AES demo some years ago. If you go to the Neumann web site an english translation of the Sound & Recording test of the 420 is available. It measures very well.

Hope this helps. Best Regards.


Edit: As was suggested earlier, you can always add woofers later if you feel the need.
Fortunately the Genelec’s all arrived safely, as I packed them securely in the original boxes and foam. Hope you’re enjoying the Salon2’s! I’m glad I sold them since it would have been a shame if they were damaged in transit, but at the same time I still find the Genelec’s do not produce the same immersive soundstage that the Salon2’s do for orchestral and acoustic music.

I listen to maybe an even distribution of all kinds of music (electronic, rock, pop, acoustic, orchestral, vocal, etc.) which makes it difficult for any one speaker to work ideally across all these.

I wish there was a more reliable way to predict this behavior from the measurements. It’s good that you also found the KH420 to sound good (presumably also for orchestral or acoustic material). This is my main concern, simply because it seems the Revel F328be is actually wider dispersion than the KH420, I would then wonder whether the F328Be would sound more spacious than the KH420.
 
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echopraxia

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So I suppose one way of describing my objective here is this: I still do not find that the Genelec 8351B produce the same level of immersive soundstage that the Salon2’s did. Everything else about them is fantastic, but they do not immerse in the same way.

I know there are differing opinions on what dispersion pattern is ideal, but it seems that the Genelec’s sound best for electronic, hard rock, pop style music, while the Salon2’s I found better than anything else I’ve heard for orchestral, acoustic, soft rock, vocal, etc. music. I also heard the F328be and really liked them as well, as a really nice middle ground between the Genelec and Salon2’s directivity characteristics to my ears (which could be wrong, I suppose).

I cannot say that I know for sure what causes this difference, but one hypothesis is that the Salon2’s have a wider beam. It may also have something to do with bass directivity or consistency through the room (since a tower of woofers probably helps smooth out room modes), but I don’t know.

So my objective now is to determine what sound system I pursue next towards that wide, spacious, enveloping, immersive soundstage effect. I know I like the Salon2’s and also the F328Be. But I am also interested in exploring something new. However it’s of course hard to do this without fully understanding what actually creates that spacious enveloping sound effect.

Regarding the previously mentioned idea of setting up a 4.1 surround setup of Genelec’s, after giving this a lot of thought, I’m actually quite sure this will never quite compare to wide beam stereo speakers, and this can be demonstrated quite simply: Suppose we have a 4.1 setup of medium beam width, and a 2.1 setup of extremely wide beam width. Now imagine you are sitting in exactly the perfect center position in the room. Suppose in this case the 4.1 setup sounds at least as good as the wide beam 2.1 setup. But now consider there is a large couch along the rear wall. Varying the listener position along this couch, with the wide beam stereo setup, each position still hears the same relatively spacious sound. However with the surround setup, there is the awkward situation of someone in the rear left seating position having the rear left surround blaring in their ear, messing up the soundstage entirely, and likewise for the rear right seat.
 
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