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Neumann KH420 vs Genelec 8361A

detlev24

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@Tonygeno: Please follow the link in this post.

Genelec states "[...] from Mac OSX 10.12 and including the newest Mac OSX 10.15 Catalina. [...]" but you could just give it a try and let us know. ;)
 

Sprint

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I haven’t tried GLM with multiple subs simultaneously, so I can’t comment on that. I can say that when the sub is positioned well, it does a good job tuning the sub for the most part. Two things I had to tune manually are:

1. Positioning of course, since software can’t do that for you. My initial position was bad and required me to boost the sub 10db manually to get reasonable results. Once positioned well, the level was calibrated well by GLM.

2. The crossover default wasn’t good for my room. Looking at the in-room response of the main speakers vs the sub, it was clear that the sub had a null around 80hz that the main speakers did not. So by lowering the crossover to 50hz or so and re-running calibration, I got much better sounding results. Fortunately the 8351B’s are quite capable of such a low crossover even at very loud levels.

3. Unrelated to subs, but I find that GLM’s default of flat in-room response is not ideal (too bright). So every time I calibrate, the first thing I do is go into the “sound character profile” menu and set a -1db/octave target curve from the presets menu. You can tune it further by hand but I find that setting is my preferred one anyway.

@echopraxia: Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts and experiences. initially, I felt too that the GLM 3.0 default made my 8340 too bright. But I did not do any changes as I want to re-run my calibration with GLM 4.0. I want to see if GLM 4.0 does something different. In the meantime, my ears got used to this.

Now the most important question that will help me to decide: Are the Genelec 7360 on par with your Rhythmik subs on performance? And also, is your Rhythmik well integrated with your passives (Revel/Focal) via minidsp (I guess for bass management)? Are the Rhythmik subs better integrated or Genelec GLM set up is better integrated?

I have the following options:
Option 1: choose to upgrade my AVR to new Denon x3700H which has better bass management with Audyssey than my Yamahas. Continue using GLM for Genelec speakers.

Option 2: Sell my 2 SVS SB12nsd subs. Buy 2*7360 Genelec subs to get the state of the art integration with Genelec speakers. But this is the most expensive option and will need some time to go this route.

Option 3: simply add a minidsp ddrc24 Dirac for bass management to my Yamaha AVR and Use GLM for Genelec speakers.

Thanks again for sharing your experience!
 

okok

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personally i will go for jbl 4367, cos it's BIG. being two-way not as strong as three-way 4365, and higher distortion than many pro non-horn speakers, but hey it's tired to pick these, you can only diy to get the perfect one
 

detlev24

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And if doesn't work, I guess I'm screwed.
I might overlook something, but why would this be the case?

If you backup your GLM 3 setup files and leave those untouched, you could always revert back from GLM 4 and restore your previous backup.(?) // Else, you could set-up a virtual machine (VM) containing another image of macOS 11 and use this for risk-free testing.
 

Vintage57

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Quested measurements available through the S&R monitor special, one of their more expensive 3-ways. I'd rather buy ATCs. And that's saying something.

I recommend listening. In my experience with having both brands in my home, side by side. It was an easy decision, and I still use ATC’s in my HT system. When listening to music, it was good vs great. YMMV.
 

Tonygeno

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I might overlook something, but why would this be the case?

If you backup your GLM 3 setup files and leave those untouched, you could always revert back from GLM 4 and restore your previous backup.(?) // Else, you could set-up a virtual machine (VM) containing another image of macOS 11 and use this for risk-free testing.
Because GLM 3 doesn't work with anything later than 10.14. So there would be nothing to back up as it won't work.
 

detlev24

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Because GLM 3 doesn't work with anything later than 10.14. So there would be nothing to back up as it won't work.
So: you cannot use GLM 3 in any case - do I get this part right?

What would then be the risk to see if GLM 4 works? Please forgive my ignorance, if I still cannot understand the issue.
 

Tonygeno

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So: you cannot use GLM 3 in any case - do I get this part right?

What would then be the risk to see if GLM 4 works? Please forgive my ignorance, if I still cannot understand the issue.
No ignorance. I guess I was not clear. This is a pre-purchase question. It appears Genelec never upgraded GLM 3 to work with anything higher than 10.14 and it does not appear that the GLM 4 Beta works with OS 11. So the issue is: I don't want to purchase $8 to $10 grand in speakers and not be able to utilize one of its USPs, GLM.
 

echopraxia

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Are the Genelec 7360 on par with your Rhythmik subs on performance? And also, is your Rhythmik well integrated with your passives (Revel/Focal) via minidsp (I guess for bass management)? Are the Rhythmik subs better integrated or Genelec GLM set up is better integrated?
I suspect not much aside from JTR can touch Rythmik’s performance for the price. I once put my Rythmik F12 in the same tiny room the 7360 is now in, and it was rattling the windows and door before it even came close to its limits. The Rythmik F12 dominates the Genelec 7360 without breaking sweat.

What I like about the 7360 is features, ease of integration with other Genelecs, and durability. The durability is a big one for my home office where one of the only good places to put it is under my desk, where there’s a risk of my feet kicking into it if not careful. The Genelec driver is covered by thick metal bars, so is pretty much bulletproof to leave under the desk. The Rythmik has a cover made of thin cloth (which is probably pretty fragile) and no other protection, and is meant as a domestic audiophile product certainly not meant for the abuse Genelec is designed for. With that said there is nothing lacking in quality of the Rythmik in any way — it’s just not designed for “industrial” levels of durability.

In terms of integration, yeah I have my Rythmik’s integrated just as well with the miniDSP SHD, but it takes considerable effort and the software is really finnicky and poorly designed IMO. Even if the software wasn’t buggy, it’s a pain to calibrate the phase because you have to just test and measure across a wide range of possibilities to find the best match manually, whereas the GLM software does this automatically. Also, while the miniDSP SHD has Dirac, it only applies as a filter on stereo input channels, not the four output channels. What this means is it’s EQing the speakers and subs together as one, whereas the miniDSP is capable of independently EQing all four output channels but ONLY if you use miniDSP’s own filter configuration software which is fully manual. In contrast, GLM works by equalizing the speakers and sub independently, which I find gives better results and is less sensitive to listening position variations. So unfortunately I find myself not really using Dirac all that much and I prefer instead to find a small number of filters to apply to each speaker that works best across a wide range of listening positions. This isn’t easy and takes hours of trial and error whereas GLM does this automatically. That said, GLM’s job is easier in that I only tune it for a single seating position whereas my miniDSP + Revel Salon2 + Rythmik’s I tune for a larger living room seating area (which is where the Salon2 shines anyway due to its very wide dispersion), which is much harder to get right.

I’ve even encountered very frustrating bugs on the miniDSP where the DSP settings it’s showing on my PC do NOT match what’s being actually used on the device, no matter how much I try to sync it (only a factory reset worked). I wouldn’t have known if not for the ability to detect the issue with REW and calibration mic. Overall I would say miniDSP gets the job done and it works well once it’s all tuned in, but it’s a huge pain to actually use and program the thing.

The Genelec software isn’t super pretty and doesn’t have a sleek ultra modern UI, but it gets the job done without any functional bugs I’ve encountered so far. The only bugs I’ve seen so far are window resizing and minimizing glitches, which are pretty predictable once you get used to them, and easy to work around.
 
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Sancus

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Also, while the miniDSP SHD has Dirac, it only applies as a filter on stereo input channels, not the four output channels. What this means is it’s EQing the speakers and subs together as one, whereas the miniDSP is capable of independently EQing all four output channels but ONLY if you use miniDSP’s own filter configuration software which is fully manual. In contrast, GLM works by equalizing the speakers and sub independently, which I find gives better results and is less sensitive to listening position variations.

That's a bit weird and kinda disappointing, I had assumed it had Dirac on the 4 output channels. The AVR/AVPs that come with Dirac do filter/impulse response for the subwoofer channels separately.

Bass Control is really interesting. It seems to do a bunch of stuff automatically in addition to normal Dirac, including changing crossovers per speaker to get the best response.

I just signed up for and installed the GLM 4 Beta today. Was really great to see that GLM 4 actually works on my new Macbook Pro, so no more having to use the old machine with a cracked screen :D. I'm going through this training course atm, which I would recommend you do too. You can skip most of the first video, as they mostly just go through Genelec's history(unless you want to hear that). The second video is more useful and walks you through the GLM setup process. Towards the end, they get into subwoofer integration, and it looks like you have the option to EQ the subs individually or as a whole.

Yeah, GLM4 seems to work great. Haven't had any issues with it on Windows, so I can't speak to those using it on Macs. But it's stable and does what it's supposed to quickly and with no fuss.

I watched that video and am not sure where you saw the ability to EQ multiple subwoofers as a whole. Do you have a timestamp? There are global/individual bass management settings, but those are just for the crossovers. WooferCal seems to always do each sub individually paired with a specific monitor for phase alignment.

I asked Genelec support about it and basically got an explanation of how it works with individual monitor+subwoofer pairs, but this isn't appropriate for multi-channel obviously as I'm not going to have 9 subwoofers to pair with each of my speaker channels because I'm cheap that way :p

So I sent them back a detailed description of my whole setup and asked if it was possible for WooferCal to EQ the sum of multiple subwoofers that are themselves handling the bass from more than one channel. But I suspect it's not. Even if it does, it doesn't look like it has any of more complex functionality of Bass Control like automatic crossover tuning and such.

That said, the units with Bass Control are really expensive as well. If you don't have Bass Control, I think GLM is probably better. You'd have to buy 3 or 4 subs to save enough money over the Genelec offerings to break even with a Monoprice HTP-1, and then you would have room correction tied to that specific unit, whereas GLM will follow you no matter what source devices you use or buy in the future.

Honestly, it does also beg the question of how much it is worth it to spend on the region between 20-100hz as well. If you have a bunch of room problems between 100-1000hz as most people will without treatment, it probably isn't worth investing $10K into subwoofers and bass management in the first place, until you've handled that other stuff.

GLM seems perfect for 1 or 2 subs with a stereo pair of monitors, and that does seem to be what it was primarily designed for.
 

detlev24

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[...] It appears Genelec never upgraded GLM 3 to work with anything higher than 10.14 and it does not appear that the GLM 4 Beta works with OS 11. So the issue is: I don't want to purchase $8 to $10 grand in speakers and not be able to utilize one of its USPs, GLM.
Thank you for the explanation, now it makes sense. :D

If you are not in a hurry to buy new loudspeakers, just wait for a while. macOS 11 was released on 12-Nov and the latest GLM 4 Beta on 19-Nov, so I would expect them to mention compatibility with 'Big Sur' soon. It is inevitable, that the final GLM 4 will show full compatibility.

You might as well just send them an email and ask, whether they already tested the Beta on macOS 11.
 

Sprint

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I suspect not much aside from JTR can touch Rythmik’s performance for the price. I once put my Rythmik F12 in the same tiny room the 7360 is now in, and it was rattling the windows and door before it even came close to its limits. The Rythmik F12 dominates the Genelec 7360 without breaking sweat.

What I like about the 7360 is features, ease of integration with other Genelecs, and durability. The durability is a big one for my home office where one of the only good places to put it is under my desk, where there’s a risk of my feet kicking into it if not careful. The Genelec driver is covered by thick metal bars, so is pretty much bulletproof to leave under the desk. The Rythmik has a cover made of thin cloth (which is probably pretty fragile) and no other protection, and is meant as a domestic audiophile product certainly not meant for the abuse Genelec is designed for. With that said there is nothing lacking in quality of the Rythmik in any way — it’s just not designed for “industrial” levels of durability.

In terms of integration, yeah I have my Rythmik’s integrated just as well with the miniDSP SHD, but it takes considerable effort and the software is really finnicky and poorly designed IMO. Even if the software wasn’t buggy, it’s a pain to calibrate the phase because you have to just test and measure across a wide range of possibilities to find the best match manually, whereas the GLM software does this automatically. Also, while the miniDSP SHD has Dirac, it only applies as a filter on stereo input channels, not the four output channels. What this means is it’s EQing the speakers and subs together as one, whereas the miniDSP is capable of independently EQing all four output channels but ONLY if you use miniDSP’s own filter configuration software which is fully manual. In contrast, GLM works by equalizing the speakers and sub independently, which I find gives better results and is less sensitive to listening position variations. So unfortunately I find myself not really using Dirac all that much and I prefer instead to find a small number of filters to apply to each speaker that works best across a wide range of listening positions. This isn’t easy and takes hours of trial and error whereas GLM does this automatically. That said, GLM’s job is easier in that I only tune it for a single seating position whereas my miniDSP + Revel Salon2 + Rythmik’s I tune for a larger living room seating area (which is where the Salon2 shines anyway due to its very wide dispersion), which is much harder to get right.

I’ve even encountered very frustrating bugs on the miniDSP where the DSP settings it’s showing on my PC do NOT match what’s being actually used on the device, no matter how much I try to sync it (only a factory reset worked). I wouldn’t have known if not for the ability to detect the issue with REW and calibration mic. Overall I would say miniDSP gets the job done and it works well once it’s all tuned in, but it’s a huge pain to actually use and program the thing.

The Genelec software isn’t super pretty and doesn’t have a sleek ultra modern UI, but it gets the job done without any functional bugs I’ve encountered so far. The only bugs I’ve seen so far are window resizing and minimizing glitches, which are pretty predictable once you get used to them, and easy to work around.

@echopraxia: Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation! Highly appreciate your insights. since I am very bad at doing everything manual due to time factor and lazy to experiment, I will then not go for minidsp/Dirac option for subwoofer integration.

since 7360 is a 10" driver and Rhythmik F12 is a 12" driver, I assume the Rhythmik will always be better and also as mentioned by you, the Rhythmik was much better. Probably a 7370 which is a 12" could reach the brilliance of Rhythmik F12.

Since I already own a pair of 12" svs subs, I need atleast a 12" subs in my room as it is also quite big. If that is the case, then my budget will be overshot as 7370 costs 2700 Euros and 2 subs will could cost 5200 Euros which in my opinion is way expensive compared to what I paid for my current pair of 12" SVS subs in 2014 which is 1100 Euros total. If I sell my svs, I may get around 400 euros for this pair. Still the difference is huge.

Another option will be to go for 1 7370 and 1 7350 which is then close to 3800 Euros. Upgrade the 7350 to a bigger sub sometimes in the future. But I do not know how this will sound with such uneven sized subs.

In conclusion, I assume I can have a quick win with better bass management by going for Denon x3700H which can integrate/measure better with my existing 12" SVS subs than my Yamaha AVR's and enjoy the new surround formats that Denon offers.

I will also open a new thread to see if anyone has integrated GLM speakers with non Genelec subwoofers. If yes, how did they manage the sub integration closer to GLM.

Thanks again for providing such detailed insights!
 
OP
Pearljam5000

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It's weird their cheapest monitor has DSP and the rest don't.
 

Sprint

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I have a similar situation and I'm trying to find your new thread.

May be you are looking for this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...c-subwoofers-with-genelec-sam-monitors.17769/. I will also search if I have another one. In the mean time, I am very happy with my set up. The SVS subs are corrected via miniDSP DDRC24 by using DIRAC. The genetics are corrected via GLM. To my ears, I see them well integrated. Ofcourse, with SAM subs, the correction will be done considering both the Genelec speakers and Genelec subs together.
 

richard12511

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May be you are looking for this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...c-subwoofers-with-genelec-sam-monitors.17769/. I will also search if I have another one. In the mean time, I am very happy with my set up. The SVS subs are corrected via miniDSP DDRC24 by using DIRAC. The genetics are corrected via GLM. To my ears, I see them well integrated. Ofcourse, with SAM subs, the correction will be done considering both the Genelec speakers and Genelec subs together.

One thing to be aware of is that GLM currently only properly handles a single sub.

I use the same process as you right now(GLM + Dirac) to integrate Genelec mains with non Genelec subs.
 

MBI

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Could a kind person please point to some useful reading on the 100-200 Hz 8361A issue that keeps bumping up in this discussion and others, I must have missed something. Many thanks in advance.
 
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