Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

[Armando]

My personal opinion is that KH420 is the least appealing offering of neumann.
a pair of neumann kh750s + pair of KH310s gives you a 4 way system instead of 3 way, sealed enclosure instead of ported one, More options for placement, and built in dsp & DAC.
It is the superior offering while costing 2k less. its also prettier. Though I would be fine in that room with just the KH310s

Hello VietnamRadioEnjoyer! Thanks for giving me your opinion.

The truth is that I had considered your suggestion when it was the KH310 model that I had in mind. The impossibility of carrying out the combination with the subs is the lack of space in the room, and I also do not like the idea of processing the signal by DSP from the KH750 sub, which I know that on the one hand provides advantages for calibration with the room but, on the other hand, 'alters' the signal.

Although, as you say, two KH310, without sub, could do a good job.

Right now I have some PMCtwenty5.23 and I don't know how different the Neumann's timbre will be compared to my PMC speakers.
The Neumann importer in Spain does not offer a showroom or anything similar.
Consequently, I will have to buy them without having heard them before, although there are some stores in Europe, which I think are known to everyone, that offer trial days of the products they sell.

I insist, thank you for your help.
Greetings

 

[Armando]

The speakers are fine for your room. I'm using them in a larger room and there's plenty of power reserves / can go really loud (and clean).

These are precise speakers, but it doesn't mean that they will sound "clinical" / "sterile" (whatever that means, objectively). I would recommend against any additional colouring. Just try them out with a decent (transparent) DAC / preamp. You will be pleasantly surprised.

AFAIK, there are no publicly announced plans / rumors about an upgraded version. Spare parts are available from Neumann. The only downside is that they charge premium for those. The current design is pretty much SOTA.

Consider buying protection grilles for your peace of mind.

Thanks MikeP!

Yes, I understand that the distortion of the KH420 is very low.

Another question that arises is knowing how they behave at low volumes. That is, if these speakers need to reach certain decibels to achieve a 'satisfactory' response.

I assume you will need certain decibels for the speaker to show the potential of the audio signal it receives.
I hope you understand what I just wrote, although I know I am not using the correct nomenclature. My knowledge is not enough for me.

Regarding the DAC/preamplifier.
The DAC, at the moment I have the one that incorporates the Wiim Ultra streamer and the one that includes the MARANTZ SA-15S2 SACD.

And regarding the preamplifier, I have two, although I will have to choose one of them, because as far as I know I will not be able to have both connected to the KH420, is that correct?
One is a Primare processor, the SPA21, which although it is not a preamplifier, the preamp section seems very transparent to me. The other is the Cayin Soul 170C tube preamplifier.

It's good to know that they are not going to change the model anytime soon.

By the way, what do you mean when they charge a premium for spare parts? I would appreciate it if you could specify it for me, please.

Yes, the grilles are part of the budget, although I don't have animals or children at home .. oneself can behave like an animal or a child, not to mention any mistake!

Thanks again, MikeP
Greetings

 

[holdingpants01]

Keep in mind that there will be KH420 MKII eventually, update of KH310 as well, right now Neumann don't have DSP on the two bigger models as they are rather old, but they'll update both of them like they did with KH120, bringing some other improvements as well. It could be next year, or in 5 years, no one knows, but it will happen and there were already rumours of KH310 MKII a year ago. I'm not saying it will be worth changing from the analogue versions, so I would still get the current ones if they would fit me.
Not "altering" the sound with DSP but letting the room do it is kind of weird point of view and I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as "speakers need to reach certain decibels to achieve a 'satisfactory' response" (quite the opposite) but others could elaborate better than me

 

[Armando]

I don't agree with this at all. I've done both - KH420s and 310s+sub. The 420s are far better. The 420 polar pattern is more even, the woofer has far more SPL capability (and so sounds cleaner at the same level) above where a sub would cross in, has way less IMD because it isn't moving as much, and moreover, I don't need to add subs in my space.

Hello dfuller

What joy and relief you give me when reading you.

I take note of your experience, and I will make the purchase of the KH420 with greater peace of mind, if possible.

What you say about the uniformity of the polar pattern is very interesting. I knew the concept but I didn't know it could be called that.

I also thank you for your response.
Greetings

 

[VietnamRadioEnjoyer]

on the other hand, 'alters' the signal.

Its transparent mate. all it does is take sample of input signal(this much voltage here that much voltage there), boost/cut/delay frequencies so they arrive as the should, and the turn it back to analogue. Its been done dozen times to create the music you listen to

Consequently, I will have to buy them without having heard them before

No need to listen to them first. there I said it. You need data to make purchasing decision and how they sound in a show room is corrupted data. you need spinorama data first for frequencies above schroeder(about 500Hz). for frequencies below it you need to lett a calibrated mic listen to them in your room and correct for its flaws. MA1 if you get KH750 otherwise minidsp for manual correction or with DIRAC
After you get the basics right then your personal preference comes into play and you can add more bass, cut treble do whatever. I personally like 2db bass boost, 2db boost around 2.5Khz and 2db cutoff after 10Khz as they hurt my ears

 

[MikeP]

Thanks MikeP!

Yes, I understand that the distortion of the KH420 is very low.

Another question that arises is knowing how they behave at low volumes. That is, if these speakers need to reach certain decibels to achieve a 'satisfactory' response.

I assume you will need certain decibels for the speaker to show the potential of the audio signal it receives.
I hope you understand what I just wrote, although I know I am not using the correct nomenclature. My knowledge is not enough for me.

Regarding the DAC/preamplifier.
The DAC, at the moment I have the one that incorporates the Wiim Ultra streamer and the one that includes the MARANTZ SA-15S2 SACD.

And regarding the preamplifier, I have two, although I will have to choose one of them, because as far as I know I will not be able to have both connected to the KH420, is that correct?
One is a Primare processor, the SPA21, which although it is not a preamplifier, the preamp section seems very transparent to me. The other is the Cayin Soul 170C tube preamplifier.

It's good to know that they are not going to change the model anytime soon.

By the way, what do you mean when they charge a premium for spare parts? I would appreciate it if you could specify it for me, please.

Yes, the grilles are part of the budget, although I don't have animals or children at home .. oneself can behave like an animal or a child, not to mention any mistake!

Thanks again, MikeP
Greetings

Hi Armando,

The frequency response of the KH420 is "linear" independent of the volume level. The speakers sound very good at both low and high SPL levels. It's actually one of the great features of these speakers. At night, I usually listen at low SPL levels and I don't miss anything from their "character".

The Wiim Ultra has a transparent DAC. I would start with this one. Just make sure you get a proper RCA to XLR adapter cable. Depending on your desired listening levels, you might not need a preamp. In fact, I would not use an additional preamp. Start with the default gain setting on the speakers. If max SPL level is not sufficient, increase the gain on the speakers (e.g.: move output level switch to 108 or 114). Most likely not needed.

If you need spare parts, they are available from Neumann, but they are expensive.

The grilles are acoustically transparent and a good investment in order to protect the drivers (especially the midrange).

 

[Armando]

Keep in mind that there will be KH420 MKII eventually, update of KH310 as well, right now Neumann don't have DSP on the two bigger models as they are rather old, but they'll update both of them like they did with KH120, bringing some other improvements as well. It could be next year, or in 5 years, no one knows, but it will happen and there were already rumours of KH310 MKII a year ago. I'm not saying it will be worth changing from the analogue versions, so I would still get the current ones if they would fit me.
Not "altering" the sound with DSP but letting the room do it is kind of weird point of view and I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as "speakers need to reach certain decibels to achieve a 'satisfactory' response" (quite the opposite) but others could elaborate better than me

Hello holding pants 01
I take note regarding future updates of the KH310 and KH420 models.

I would like to know if, regarding the latest version of the KH120 model, which, as indicated, incorporates DSP, is it possible to 'skip' the DSP, and have the signal be completely analog?
I understand that the implementation they do in the KH420 will follow the same scheme used for the KH120, although it may be too much to assume.
In this sense, I would like to know your opinion.

Regarding the potential 'beneficial/harmful' effects that the DSP implicitly has, I don't have much experience, except for what I experienced with the dbx driverack PA2, which 'controlled' the room, but 'deteriorated' the signal too much.

I apologize again in advance for not expressing myself properly.

And regarding reaching certain decibels for the speaker to express itself satisfactorily, I admit, again, that I don't know how to explain it much better. Years ago I had some ATC SCM19 monitors, with 85db. The fact is that they need high doses of current to make them 'move', to express themselves 'satisfactorily'. Tried to explain in other terms, for my taste these ATCs needed a lot of watts, a lot of current delivery so that I could appreciate what was emitted by the sound source. Consequently, it was not an optimal speaker for night listening, because its optimal listening did not make it incompatible with a good neighbor.
I don't know if I have been able to explain myself a little more.

Be that as it may, thank you very much for your response, holdingpants01
Greetings

 

[holdingpants01]

Hello holding pants 01
I take note regarding future updates of the KH310 and KH420 models.

I would like to know if, regarding the latest version of the KH120 model, which, as indicated, incorporates DSP, is it possible to 'skip' the DSP, and have the signal be completely analog?
I understand that the implementation they do in the KH420 will follow the same scheme used for the KH120, although it may be too much to assume.
In this sense, I would like to know your opinion.

No way to skip it, it's integral part of the speaker, the whole crossover is digital, but being afraid of it is unnecessary

I apologize again in advance for not expressing myself properly.

And regarding reaching certain decibels for the speaker to express itself satisfactorily, I admit, again, that I don't know how to explain it much better. Years ago I had some ATC SCM19 monitors, with 85db. The fact is that they need high doses of current to make them 'move', to express themselves 'satisfactorily'. Tried to explain in other terms, for my taste these ATCs needed a lot of watts, a lot of current delivery so that I could appreciate what was emitted by the sound source. Consequently, it was not an optimal speaker for night listening, because its optimal listening did not make it incompatible with a good neighbor.
I don't know if I have been able to explain myself a little more.

Be that as it may, thank you very much for your response, holdingpants01
Greetings

The whole "need high doses of current to make them move" is almost always just the lack of low end of given speaker. Listening to it louder compensates in lack of energy down low by sheer volume of sound. The Fletcher–Munson curve of equal loudness also come to play. Generally it's almost never a problem of "current", full range speakers sound as good quiet as they are being listened to loudly, up to a point of course

 

[Armando]

Hi Armando,

The frequency response of the KH420 is "linear" independent of the volume level. The speakers sound very good at both low and high SPL levels. It's actually one of the great features of these speakers. At night, I usually listen at low SPL levels and I don't miss anything from their "character".

The Wiim Ultra has a transparent DAC. I would start with this one. Just make sure you get a proper RCA to XLR adapter cable. Depending on your desired listening levels, you might not need a preamp. In fact, I would not use an additional preamp. Start with the default gain setting on the speakers. If max SPL level is not sufficient, increase the gain on the speakers (e.g.: move output level switch to 108 or 114). Most likely not needed.

If you need spare parts, they are available from Neumann, but they are expensive.

The grilles are acoustically transparent and a good investment in order to protect the drivers (especially the midrange).

Hi MikeP

Your contributions are very useful.

And I think I sufficiently understand the linear response and its importance, in particular with regard to 'they sound great' at low SPL levels.

I will try to interpose a preamplifier between the wiim ultra and the 420, considering the possibility of increasing the speaker gains to 108 or 114 in output level.

The RCA cable I have I would say is of reasonable quality. For this reason I think I will not lose quality.

Now it's clear to me. Neumann spare parts are not cheap, although if they are committed to getting them, they also have a price.

On the other hand, I want to believe that Neumann's after-sales service must be good.

Yes, that media dome looks like if you press it, it will 'never return to its place again' hehehe... and the grille gives a certain peace of mind, especially knowing that they are acoustically transparent.

Thank you so much

 

[Armando]

No way to skip it, it's integral part of the speaker, the whole crossover is digital, but being afraid of it is unnecessary



The whole "need high doses of current to make them move" is almost always just the lack of low end of given speaker. Listening to it louder compensates in lack of energy down low by sheer volume of sound. The Fletcher–Munson curve of equal loudness also come to play. Generally it's almost never a problem of "current", full range speakers sound as good quiet as they are being listened to loudly, up to a point of course

.. because your explanations make the doubts I had clear to me.

I will begin to lose 'the fear' of DSP.

Thank you very much, holdingpants01!!

 

[MikeP]

I will try to interpose a preamplifier between the wiim ultra and the 420, considering the possibility of increasing the speaker gains to 108 or 114 in output level.

I would encourage you to try a direct connection first, i.e. without preamplifier. Less devices in the signal chain. 2V RMS from the Wiim Ultra should be more than enough to drive the speakers pretty loud.

The RCA cable I have I would say is of reasonable quality. For this reason I think I will not lose quality.

The KH420 has a balanced input only. The Wiim Ultra has an unbalanced output. In order to properly connect them, you need an "adapter" cable properly wired (twister pair [hot, cold] + shield; one end has RCA, the other XLR; shield and cold signal connected together at the RCA ground; hot, cold and shield connected to their corresponding pins at the XLR side).

 

[dfuller]

I will try to interpose a preamplifier between the wiim ultra and the 420, considering the possibility of increasing the speaker gains to 108 or 114 in output level.

Honestly, consider that the sensitivity setting is for 0dBu, ie 0.775V RMS. They don't need more gain. Besides, better to leave them at lower gain levels for self noise reasons.

 

[MikeP]

Honestly, consider that the sensitivity setting is for 0dBu, ie 0.775V RMS. They don't need more gain. Besides, better to leave them at lower gain levels for self noise reasons.

Correct. Basically, if you feed one speaker with 0.775V RMS and the output level setting is at 100 on the speaker, the overall SPL level registered at 1m in front of the speaker (on the acoustic axis) will be 100dB. That's loud.

 

[Armando]

I would encourage you to try a direct connection first, i.e. without preamplifier. Less devices in the signal chain. 2V RMS from the Wiim Ultra should be more than enough to drive the speakers pretty loud.

The KH420 has a balanced input only. The Wiim Ultra has an unbalanced output. In order to properly connect them, you need an "adapter" cable properly wired (twister pair [hot, cold] + shield; one end has RCA, the other XLR; shield and cold signal connected together at the RCA ground; hot, cold and shield connected to their corresponding pins at the XLR side).

Hi MikeP

Sorry. I missed adding a 'no'.
What I meant was that I will precisely connect it directly from the Wiim Ultra to the KH420.

And I thank you for the very precise information on how the intermodulation cable has to be mounted.

Thanks for everything, again.

 

[Armando]

Honestly, consider that the sensitivity setting is for 0dBu, ie 0.775V RMS. They don't need more gain. Besides, better to leave them at lower gain levels for self noise reasons.

Understood. Well, I'll start with the sensitivity at a minimum. I believe the wiim ultra has 3 output sensitivity settings.
Thank you

 

[Chimiel]

Hello everyone,

having been reading this forum for some time now, this is my first post and hopefully it will be of value for one or the other. It's about the installation of my KH 420 (more precisely its predecessor model O 410) in my listening room:

View attachment 369501

I operate the analog O 410s together with two digital KH 750 subwoofers for the following reasons, even though this does not increase the overall volume (closed 10” bass speaker for the KH 750 versus open BR bass speaker for the O 410):
1. Positioning the subwoofers close to the wall reduces cancellations.
2. Positioning the O 410s away from the wall improves localization.
3. Using the KH 750s makes it possible to employ the MA 1 calibration software with excellent results.

My listening triangle is 190 cm (6.2 feet). I have always been very happy with my Neumanns but this configuration is the best so far (in my listening room).

Hi, I just bought the KH 420 for my living room, and have a serious dip at 50-60 Hz, seems cancellation. I’m thinking about buying the KH 750 sub, to solve this dip, and place the sub accordingly. Do you think a single sub will do the KH 420 right, at normal listenng levels ? Cheers !

 

[RobL]

Hi, I just bought the KH 420 for my living room, and have a serious dip at 50-60 Hz, seems cancellation. I’m thinking about buying the KH 750 sub, to solve this dip, and place the sub accordingly. Do you think a single sub will do the KH 420 right, at normal listenng levels ? Cheers !

How do you have them set up? Maybe you can move them closer to the back wall?

 

[dfuller]

How do you have them set up? Maybe you can move them closer to the back wall?

Agree - as close to the back wall as you can get them. Then roll back the bass either with DSP or with the built in boundary EQ.

 

[Chimiel]

Hi, I did indeed measured a better response with REW, just a few centimeters from the wall. I used the parametric EQ to get somewhat rid of the bass hump, but EQ is little use for the cancellation at 50-60 Hz. Hence the idea for a sub, on a different place in my living room. Lastly I also applied Sonarworks. The do sound very good, but I think I'm not there yet.

 

[dfuller]

Hi, I did indeed measured a better response with REW, just a few centimeters from the wall. I used the parametric EQ to get somewhat rid of the bass hump, but EQ is little use for the cancellation at 50-60 Hz. Hence the idea for a sub, on a different place in my living room. Lastly I also applied Sonarworks. The do sound very good, but I think I'm not there yet. View attachment 415126

The 60hz null might be ceiling bounce. Maybe consider a cloud?