• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 29 5.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 490 93.5%

  • Total voters
    524

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,864
Likes
16,812
The problem is that more constant directivity designs like the S360 have a kink at the DI and sound power which gives a particular sound signature which can be also witnessed at at larger listening distances (similar also at typical horn and PA systems), everything is a compromise:

1660470215561.png


1660470276716.png


1660470295423.png


I have written to Pearljam quite few times that for his smaller listening room and listening distances I would rather recommend him the Ones, especially since it seems he prefers the tonal sound signature of wider radiating loudspeakers like the Focal.
 

test1223

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
518
The problem is that more constant directivity designs like the S360 have a kink at the DI and sound power which gives a particular sound signature which can be also witnessed at at larger listening distances (similar also at typical horn and PA systems), everything is a compromise:

View attachment 224120

View attachment 224121

View attachment 224122

I have written to Pearljam quite few times that for his smaller listening room and listening distances I would rather recommend him the Ones, especially since it seems he prefers the tonal sound signature of wider radiating loudspeakers like the Focal.
Yes in a small room you get the best sound with very wide constant di speakers which are symmetrical in the middle of the room. The listening position should also be in the middle of the room and you need a short listening distance (about 1m). With such a set up you get envelopement and details in a small room without using diffusers on every wall. Since it is a very impractical setup, you can use stands and a chair which can be moved easily into place and back into a more conventional set up.
 

DJBonoBobo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
1,377
Likes
2,877
Location
any germ
I'm moving to a bigger room of about 12sqm:)
More textured and tight bass?
From my experience there is no way of getting good bass in a 12 sqm room with 2 speakers. At least if it's a normal room, not a tent or a hut... Regardless how great the speakers are. I suspect that any difference between all the speakers you are considering will not matter in such a room at all. At least if you are not planning on building a really significant amount of treatment. IMHO the bass quality is at least "70%" (not a real number of course, but how it feels) determined by the room in a small room. But i guess you have to make this experience on your own. But please don't be surprised when any of the super capable speakers you are thinking about does not meet your expectations in your room. 12 sqm is better than 9 though...

Yes in a small room you get the best sound with very wide constant di speakers which are symmetrical in the middle of the room. The listening position should also be in the middle of the room and you need a short listening distance (about 1m). With such a set up you get envelopement and details in a small room without using diffusers on every wall. Since it is a very impractical setup, you can use stands and a chair which can be moved easily into place and back into a more conventional set up.
How do you mean "middle"? Like the left picture in a 3x4m room? I don´t think that would be a good idea because of bass nulls + SBIR?
Or do you mean something more like the right picture?

1660474396977.png
1660474523160.png
 

test1223

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
518
How do you mean "middle"? Like the left picture in a 3x4m room? I don´t think that would be a good idea because of bass nulls + SBIR?
Or do you mean something more like the right picture?
Yes, not good for the bass but best placement for everything above Schroeder Frequency. Since you can easily use a subwoofer or use room eq in the sub bass it is the best option if the room can't be upgraded, like in most cases.

Middle means that all first reflections are as late as possible and as symmetrical as possible (especially the first sidewall reflections should have the same time delay from the left and right speaker). A wider stereo triangle can also be beneficial in such near field set up the downside it that you can't move the head much otherwise you destroy the good soundstage and localisation.
 

DJBonoBobo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
1,377
Likes
2,877
Location
any germ
Yes, not good for the bass but best placement for everything above Schroeder Frequency. Since you can easily use a subwoofer or use room eq in the sub bass it is the best option if the room can't be upgraded, like in most cases.

Middle means that all first reflections are as late as possible and as symmetrical as possible (especially the first sidewall reflections should have the same time delay from the left and right speaker). A wider stereo triangle can also be beneficial in such near field set up the downside it that you can't move the head much otherwise you destroy the good soundstage and localisation.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I don´t want to discuss this topic more in this thread, because of OT.

But to get back on topic a bit: If you chose a placement like this, i think it is clear the KH 420 are not the best option for this. (Too close + they cannot play out their bass capabilities and you need subs anyway).
 

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,214
Likes
5,444
8361 or KH420
Which one is better in an untreated room with windows ?
 

DJBonoBobo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
1,377
Likes
2,877
Location
any germ
Wooden or aluminium frame?

More seriously: In your 12 sqm room: 8361. But not because of the windows... If you open them you might have better bass though.
 

tifune

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Messages
1,085
Likes
768
8361 or KH420
Which one is better in an untreated room with windows ?
would you consider 3 neumann 420 as a LCR front for an HT system , and of course stereo system (high dynamics tracks) ?

Weird coincidence. Have an offer to, basically, trade my c426Be for a KH420 but can't make up my mind. Untreated stone/wood room and it would be right in front of windows 7ft up, 9ft away. What would you do? Front L/R is 226Be, front height 126Be
 

Attachments

  • 20220814_085100.jpg
    20220814_085100.jpg
    184.8 KB · Views: 153

DJBonoBobo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
1,377
Likes
2,877
Location
any germ
What would you do?
I suggest open a new thread and explain your situation in detail (room size, positions, pictures/sketches etc.). Also post measurements of your current setup there. If you don´t have a measurement mic, buy one before buying anything else.
 

Curvature

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2022
Messages
1,095
Likes
1,376
It is a very complex topic and you have many aspects in short: A uniform RT60 (speaker as source and microphone at the listening position) is a good start to get good sound. Since alle speaker beam the sound differently you have to optimize the room according to the speaker and listening position.

The power di of the 8361 is more linear over frequency and you get more energy in the higher frequencies compared with the other two speakers (which is in general a good thing). The listening distance should either be a bit lower or you can thread the room more easily with wide band absorption if the sound is too bright or with diffusers to get really good envelopment (a lot of people never heard good envelopment from a stereo set up but you can get it). It is more easy to absorb only higher frequencies than absorb only mids or bass frequencies, therefore the 8361 is the speaker which provides the best power di (from the three here) to adjust the sound with room acoustics.

The power di of the KH420 show a more narrow beam in the higher frequencies compared to the mids therefore absorption panels which didn't attenuate the higher frequencies or using only diffusers might help that the overall sound didn't get to dark or that you get details and preserve envelopment.

The S360 is more similar to the KH420 than the 8361.
With both speakers you have to pay more attention to the wall where the main beam of the speakers is directed to (typically the back wall). A diffuser or some reflection panels help that you preserve some envelopment and get rid of the distinct back wall reflection. With wide band absorption at the backwall you might take out the room to much (depends on the listening distance). Both are more suitable if the listening distance is higher and you didn't want to threat the room that much compared with the 8361.
I appreciate the explanation but wonder about the approach.

My understanding of small room acoustic treatment is that it is mostly speaker agnostic and the effects of acoustic treatment are fairly coarse and can't be tightly controlled. That makes precision compensation for this trio of largely similar speakers somewhat unrealistic IMO, although I'd agree your general approach works. EQ is likely better for controlling tonality than some specific application of absorption.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,042
Read the Toole book or the Rod Gervais book by Exemple.
Your understanding will better.
 

Curvature

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2022
Messages
1,095
Likes
1,376
@Frgirard Is dropping a link the best you can do?

As far as I know the modifications acousticians make to accomodate specific direct radiator speakers are minor (mostly to do with the size of the speaker and how it will be mounted and positioned). The overall approach to a room is not different if you pick Neumann over Genelec. Not different amounts of absorption, not different placement of diffusors, not different angles of sidewalls or ceiling. Small rooms are designed with acoustics generally in mind, not brand to brand, speaker to speaker differences in radiation patterns.
 

test1223

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
518
I appreciate the explanation but wonder about the approach.

My understanding of small room acoustic treatment is that it is mostly speaker agnostic and the effects of acoustic treatment are fairly coarse and can't be tightly controlled. That makes precision compensation for this trio of largely similar speakers somewhat unrealistic IMO, although I'd agree your general approach works. EQ is likely better for controlling tonality than some specific application of absorption.
The differences of the speakers aren't minor the sound power di and early reflection di is about 1 to 2dB different in the marked areas. The ear is very sensitive in the 1-3kHz region and 2dB in sound power di is a larger number since it represents about the different of a two classes bigger speaker.
You can compare speakers here https://pierreaubert.github.io/
111.png


With an eq you can only equalize the direct sound and the sound from the room acoustic together therefore the speakers wouldn't sound the same even after eq. Room acoustic treatment is the way to go. You are right that most first step room acoustic tricks would improve the performance of both speakers, but if you optimize a room for a specific speaker and placement it isn't ideal (or sounds differently) with another speaker.
 

Frgirard

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 2, 2021
Messages
1,737
Likes
1,042
@Frgirard Is dropping a link the best you can do?

As far as I know the modifications acousticians make to accomodate specific direct radiator speakers are minor (mostly to do with the size of the speaker and how it will be mounted and positioned). The overall approach to a room is not different if you pick Neumann over Genelec. Not different amounts of absorption, not different placement of diffusors, not different angles of sidewalls or ceiling. Small rooms are designed with acoustics generally in mind, not brand to brand, speaker to speaker differences in radiation patterns.
One day, you will learn the importance of the decay.
The blind point in the world of the equalization.
The decay is independent from the type of speakers.
 

Curvature

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2022
Messages
1,095
Likes
1,376
One day, you will learn the importance of the decay.
The blind point in the world of the equalization.
The decay is independent from the type of speakers.
I understand English is not your first language so it may be difficult to explain your thoughts.

Despite that from my perspective you are contributing nothing useful. I've read the books. I have not seen evidence that you can optimize rooms for specific radiation patterns of similarly designed speakers. In this case direct radiators to other direct radiators.
 

Curvature

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2022
Messages
1,095
Likes
1,376
The differences of the speakers aren't minor the sound power di and early reflection di is about 1 to 2dB different in the marked areas. The ear is very sensitive in the 1-3kHz region and 2dB in sound power di is a larger number since it represents about the different of a two classes bigger speaker.
You can compare speakers here https://pierreaubert.github.io/
View attachment 224333

With an eq you can only equalize the direct sound and the sound from the room acoustic together therefore the speakers wouldn't sound the same even after eq. Room acoustic treatment is the way to go. You are right that most first step room acoustic tricks would improve the performance of both speakers, but if you optimize a room for a specific speaker and placement it isn't ideal (or sounds differently) with another speaker.
I meant to reply earlier. I am not saying the speakers sound the same. They are similar because they are all direct radiator designs. As such and given the measured data we have we also know that the radiation patterns are not very different and similarly well controlled.

Acoustic treatment is also not very precise. Above the transition frequency I have doubts you can do optimizations. Part of this could be because before there was no precise and/or readily available data for acousticians. They designed rooms based on general principles of acoustics. I think the bigger part is that whatever is done to the room will not have a markedly different effect per speaker.

I don't know of any work on the subject takes its beginning from nominally similar speakers and attempts to extract precise optimizations. What I've seen compares soffit mounting to in room positioning, or two channel vs multichannel considerations, or dipoles vs monopoles.
 

test1223

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
518
I meant to reply earlier. I am not saying the speakers sound the same. They are similar because they are all direct radiator designs. As such and given the measured data we have we also know that the radiation patterns are not very different and similarly well controlled.

Acoustic treatment is also not very precise. Above the transition frequency I have doubts you can do optimizations. Part of this could be because before there was no precise and/or readily available data for acousticians. They designed rooms based on general principles of acoustics. I think the bigger part is that whatever is done to the room will not have a markedly different effect per speaker.

I don't know of any work on the subject takes its beginning from nominally similar speakers and attempts to extract precise optimizations. What I've seen compares soffit mounting to in room positioning, or two channel vs multichannel considerations, or dipoles vs monopoles.
The power DI condenses the radiation of the speaker in one curve. If you claim that the difference of the radiation pattern of the 8361 and KH420 is small, than you indirectly claim that almost all speakers with roughly the same size are similar in this regard, since the differences in the power DI are typically smaller than the difference between the 8361 and KH420. If you follow you claim than after equalization these speaker should provide the same tonality. But if you test this hypothesis in the real world you will find that you have a significantly different tonality between speakers like the KH420 and 8361 no matter how you set up the eq.

The claim that a lot of speaker sound tonality wise very similar after eq is partly true if you have a heavily damped room and a very small listening distance. Where the direct sound is much louder than all reflections. But with this approach you didn't get good stereo sound due to the lack of reflections.

As I already wrote you have to adjust the tonality and amount of reflected sound e.g. RT60 at your listening position. You also have to consider if you want to diffuse, damp pr reflect the first reflections, which depends on the tonality and strength of the reflection and your overall approach. All those decisions are speaker and position dependent. With main monitors you build the room for the speakers or the speakers for the room and this is also the best approach for any other speaker. You are right that many did the good enough approach but these rooms didn't sound as good as an optimized speaker room combo.

There is also one approach to build a studio with panels which can be switched form damping to defusing to adjust the room acoustic.
 

Curvature

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2022
Messages
1,095
Likes
1,376
The power DI condenses the radiation of the speaker in one curve. If you claim that the difference of the radiation pattern of the 8361 and KH420 is small, than you indirectly claim that almost all speakers with roughly the same size are similar in this regard, since the differences in the power DI are typically smaller than the difference between the 8361 and KH420.
Because the directivity index is a composite curve it tends to hide rather than reveal differences. It's why groups of curves are necessary to compare speakers.

You won't find me claiming anywhere that speakers sound "the same". What I wrote was that speakers of the same type, like monopole direct radiators, will follow the same tendencies, and there is even higher convergence when the speakers in question have no notable flaws, like the KH420 or 8361A. That puts the notion of optimization into question. How much can you affect when your speaker is as good as it is?

Is there really meaningful guidance on room treatment that begins with the assumption that speakers radiation patterns show low single digit differences in output at particular angles? Early reflections are easy to affect by choice of panel, while low level reverberation is hard to control in any meaningful manner in an existing room. I would not call a choice between absorbers or diffusors or some hybrid on room surfaces to be a very nuanced choice, and the assessments by measurement microphone charting RT60 are similarly coarse.

How do you choose a broadband absorber? You get the thickest one you can, and then you hope you can supplement it with a true bass absorber like the Helmholtz kind. For diffusors, you get to pick between many different designs, but they are all so different and the result so hard to measure (directional information about reflected sound) that the guiding principles are general rather than specific.

You know Blackbird Studio C in Nashville, designed by D’Antonio?
What does this room have to do with the speakers in it? I'd argue little. It was built with multichannel in mind and assumed a broad range of differences in speaker radiation patterns. How can this room be optimized for those ATCs? I'd argue that it can't be. D'Antonio's public materials on the design say nothing about choice of speaker. The room itself took priority.

I think it's a mistake to call random experimenting with placements and panels at home or in the studio until you get the right sound "optimization". I'm sure a person could arrive at something better than a purely general approach by tweaking, knowledge of room acoustics and intuition, but it will be time poorly spent and a lot of guesswork. The word "optimization" only applies if you have a target and a method. I'd argue we have only a loose sense of the first and the second as far as room treatment is concerned. The basic approach is still to avoid problems like SBIR. Maximizing envelopment is first to do with where you listen and where you place the speakers, then choice of speakers, and then understanding that certain panel choices and positions are better than others. That's hardly optimization. In a loose sense, yes. In a strict sense, no.

The reason why is because we have no meaningful subjective perceptual targets.
 
Top Bottom