Thanks for detailed comment.
For stereo music playback only which would you choose?
I see the appeal of KH420s for music listening - they don't need subs.Well, just on the fact that I don't need as much dynamics, I would choose KH420 (over S360), since it has less distortion at higher frequencies.
But that assumes I'm okay with their size.
In reality, I'd just get the 8351/8361 for music playback, since it's more compact form factor than KH420 or S360 and I won't need S360 or KH420's higher dynamic handling and extra amplifier power. I think that S360, KH420 become overkill for music listening.
I edited my comment above to indicate that I'd like 8351/8361 (with subs).I see the appeal of KH420s for music listening - they don't need subs.
They're the kind of speakers I'd want to flush mount in a dedicated control room.I edited my comment above to indicate that I'd like 8351/8361 (with subs).
But I can see the appeal of KH420 without subs for music playback. Im okay with that, assuming I can live with their size. They're CHUNKY BOIs
1. S360 tweeter seems to have higher distortion beyond say 2khz, vs KH420.
2. KH420's frequency response starts to drop (limiter kicking in), somewhere beyond 5khz (seems like 3db) and then drops like a rock beyond 10khz (more than 6db)
It's unfortunate you can't use the 8361 without subsWell, just on the fact that I don't need as much dynamics, I would choose KH420 (over S360), since it has less distortion at higher frequencies.
But that assumes I'm okay with their size.
In reality, I'd just get the 8351/8361 (plus subs) for music playback, since it's more compact form factor than KH420/S360 and I won't need S360/KH420's higher dynamic handling and extra amplifier power. I think that KH420/S360 are overkill for music listening.
Well there's a lesson for you, prices rarely go down but frequently go up The longer you wait, the more you can expect to pay!It's unfortunate you can't use the 8361 without subs
It would have been perfect
Another annoying thing is the KH420 used to cost much less than 8361
I just can't get a break
Great comment (as always)Here's my current thoughts (which might change tomorrow ):
Are you listening to music with subs?
- I'd get the 8351/8361 (+ music subs) for music playback in a living room, since it's more compact form factor than KH420/S360. So for music, by going with 8351/8361 (+ music subs), you won't require the S360/KH420's higher dynamic handling, extra amplifier power, and larger cabinet volumes. By going with Genelec Ones, you gain vertical directivity (which is important if you're walking around the room and listening to music, instead of sitting in one spot), smaller form factor (can be placed in most living rooms without issues) and looks (I think the eggs are very pleasing to look at). Any decent-measuring subs will help 8351/8361 deal with room modes (frequency dips and peaks). Deepest frequency extension is not needed for music playback (unlike for movies where 20hz extension in the bass and at reference levels, is the goal). So you can choose subwoofers that aren't as capable for music playback as subs needed for movies. So you save some money on subs here. By "music subs", I mean subs capable of outputting down to 25hz, since music rarely goes lower, unlike movies which extend to 20hz.
- Neumann KH310 (+ music subs) can also be used here, but I'm choosing Genelec Ones due to their smaller form factor mostly. I think the eggs are more aesthetically pleasing to fit in a typical living room than KH310. KH310 don't need the dynamics of KH420, so they'll work for music playback with no issues.
Are you listening to music and don't want subs?
- I can see the appeal of KH420 (with no subs) for music playback in your living room, because they go down to 24hz (at -6db point)(anechoic) (which means in room, with boundary gain it will be deeper) which is enough of extension for music listening. This is a lower extension than Genelec 8361 (which is 27hz) or S360 (which is 35hz). In terms of output, KH420 would have plenty of volume (in SPL) for music listening. This is because KH420 can already output enough volume for movies at reference level, so music playback (which is usually at lower SPL) is no problem. KH420 is an option if you can accept the large sized speaker in your living room. This is a deal breaker for my living room, but everyone's use case is different.
- Genelec S360 (with no subs) is not recommended for music, since it's -6db point is 35hz (or +11hz higher than KH420), so eventhough it has enough output, it just doesn't extend very low, so you'll need to add music subs just to match KH420's extension.
- Genelec 8361 (with no subs) can be considered here, since it's -6db point is 27hz. I personally think 8361 still needs subs, but I can see a person thinking this can work as well.
Are you watching movies with reference level of playback?
- For higher than music level of playback, meaning for movie reference level of playback, KH420/S360 (+ movie subs) are needed. In a home theater, cabinet volume doesnt matter (it’s assumed your home theater room is big enough to have such large speakers placed without issues) and vertical directivity is not important (if you’re watching movies, you’re sitting down and not moving around, so vertical directivity is less critical). The goal for movies is to achieve 20hz bass extension, and at reference level of playback, which means capable subwoofers are needed, ideally 15" or higher woofers. Two subwoofers will be needed to even out the room modes (frequency peaks and dips) and to hit reference level of playback (down to 20hz and with plenty of output). You’ll need to spend more money to get the "movie subs" (down to 20hz) for movies.
- Genelec 8361 (+ movie subs) can also be used for movies, as we've seen by Sancus's home theater build and noted in the post above.
1. A lot of these speakers can be used for movie playback. But I think if you start talking about the most capable speakers that can be used, you have to exclude speakers. For example, both KH310 and KH420 can be used for reference level of movie playback. KH420 would handle dynamics better and with better distortion handling than KH310. So we can exclude KH310 from this discussion. But in reality, KH310 is a very capable speaker, so I'm not completely dismissing it just because it's a bad speaker. Ahh, speaker recommendations are hard.
2. Hard for me to say what is music playback I'm referring to, but if we assume you're listening to -10db from reference level (of your AVR) for movies, then I would assume -15db to -20db for music playback.
You can use my 'subwoofer comparison' spreadsheet to find subs for either movie or music playback.
This is an effect of placement and room, primarily. Dispersion characteristics play into it a bit.Which gives the best soundstage?
They're equals. Flat on axis, smooth off-axis.Which has the better tonality?
Mostly a consequence of room, but also the design. KH310s are far tighter sounding than most of the smaller Genelecs IME.More textured and tight bass?
Well that's disappointing ( considering the price of the Ones)This is an effect of placement and room, primarily. Dispersion characteristics play into it a bit.
They're equals. Flat on axis, smooth off-axis.
Mostly a consequence of room, but also the design. KH310s are far tighter sounding than most of the smaller Genelecs IME.
It is a very complex topic and you have many aspects in short: A uniform RT60 (speaker as source and microphone at the listening position) is a good start to get good sound. Since alle speaker beam the sound differently you have to optimize the room according to the speaker and listening position.How so? Can you elaborate?