Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

[bigjacko]

Not independently tested, but a local for me (Aus) maker on my shortlist for my upgrade has made eliminating distortion his mission. As far as I know it is rare to provide distortion measurements, smoothed or not. I’ve heard an old pair of his bookshelves and they were amazing to my ears for what that is worth, trying to audition this 3-way soon. Note the DB level:

View attachment 204014

Products-Tripos | Legend Acoustics

www.legendspeakers.com.au

I am afraid non of the drivers on earth has distortion that low at tweeter frequency and bass for that size. As I can see the drivers are sb acoustic ones. I agree that particular sb acoustic tweeter has the lowest distortion until purifi came up with one, but without waveguide that distortion is impossible. The power handling for that tweeter is 100 watt with sensitivity about 90db, very good spl capability but probably not too happy at 110db. Sb acoustic does not make very high excursion woofers, so the bass distortion will be fake.

 

[mmi]

I am afraid non of the drivers on earth has distortion that low at tweeter frequency and bass for that size. As I can see the drivers are sb acoustic ones. I agree that particular sb acoustic tweeter has the lowest distortion until purifi came up with one, but without waveguide that distortion is impossible. The power handling for that tweeter is 100 watt with sensitivity about 90db, very good spl capability but probably not too happy at 110db. Sb acoustic does not make very high excursion woofers, so the bass distortion will be fake.

Hmm. Not saying you are wrong to have doubts but I highly doubt this is a lie, he makes his living building speakers with the sole aim of eliminating distortion of any kind and it is fairly easy to independently measure such a thing. What would lying with a test like this achieve, besides putting his reputation on the line? His frequency response measurements have been verified in independent tests. Read a bit more about him and you will realise he knows what he is doing… Masters of Physics and Metallurgy, Doctor of Materials Sciences, Project Lead of Linn speakers in the 80s responsible for the isobarik models.

Btw he modifies the drivers, adds extra damping surround to the woofers, has proprietary cabinet design with no parallel surfaces or something like that (they weigh a ton), builds high quality crossovers aimed at reducing distortion, and only runs drivers well within their ranges so start breakup starts more than -40db down.

I’ve heard a pair of his bookshelves second hand and they were ridiculously loud and clear. Very, very good speakers and well respected locally, they occasionally pop up second hand but not often.

 

[McGillroy]

Those Linn Isobariks sound funny and measure quite funny too. The latter is still true for most Linn designs to this day.

Their speaker designs are driven by their desire to sell amplification channels, domestic presentability and serving as a status good. Look at their smallest bookshelf - it's a three way that needs 3 amplification channels per side to be activated. Does that super tweeter make sense or would using two higher quality drivers have made more sense? Isobarik = 2 active channels per bass driver instead of one, etc, etc.

Back to 430s - those make more sense on so many levels and Neumann even publishes their measurements. Linn doesn't - I wonder why.

 

[mmi]

Those Linn Isobariks sound funny and measure quite funny too. The latter is still true for most Linn designs to this day.

Their speaker designs are driven by their desire to sell amplification channels, domestic presentability and serving as a status good. Look at their smallest bookshelf - it's a three way that needs 3 amplification channels per side to be activated. Does that super tweeter make sense or would using two higher quality drivers have made more sense? Isobarik = 2 active channels per bass driver instead of one, etc, etc.

Back to 430s - those make more sense on so many levels and Neumann even publishes their measurements. Linn doesn't - I wonder why.

I think we are talking at cross points here. I may be wrong about his ownership of isobaric models (although he still uses the technique in some models). Dr Crawford did introduce measurements to the speaker design process at Linn during his tenure but I assume like any corporation he was working under certain constraints. His Legend speakers were only bought up when someone asked for better or close to headphone level distortion in a speaker. Linn speakers from 40 years ago have nothing to do with this, or the topic I agree.

 

[Tangband]

I think we are talking at cross points here. I may be wrong about his ownership of isobaric models (although he still uses the technique in some models). Dr Crawford did introduce measurements to the speaker design process at Linn during his tenure but I assume like any corporation he was working under certain constraints. His Legend speakers were only bought up when someone asked for better or close to headphone level distortion in a speaker. Linn speakers from 40 years ago have nothing to do with this, or the topic I agree.

Dr. Crawford is a genius . Linn kaber was one of the first 2,5 way loudspeakers ever released.
Akudorik exact ( by Phil Budd ) is flat within +- 2 dB between 200-20000 Hz, measured at a distance of 1,3 metres in a normal livingroom. I have done a lot of measurement on this model. This is one of the worlds best sounding standmount loudspeaker, and one of the most expensive too.

 

[Frgirard]

I have read Toole in two different editions, a brilliant tome.

I am an engineer and I have read a lot of other technical books too.

None were a Bible.

I have done a lot of experiments as well.

You worship however you wish but don't expect everybody to share your religion, even if many do - religions are like that.

You take your desire of a reality. Where I wrote something religious? Take a coca and breath.

 

[McGillroy]

Dr. Crawford is a genius . Linn kaber was one of the first 2,5 way loudspeakers ever released.
Akudorik exact ( by Phil Budd ) is flat within +- 2 dB between 200-20000 Hz, measured at a distance of 1,3 metres in a normal livingroom. I have done a lot of measurement on this model. This is one of the worlds best sounding standmount loudspeaker, and one of the most expensive too.

I used to have a Kaber. That speaker is really nowhere near flat, has weird phase behaviour, no low-end, very limited dynamics etc. And yes I had it in all possible iterations from single amp over, dual- and triple amp to full active.

Akudorik Exakt is a different story. Any speaker can be made measuring flat if you throw that much DSP at it. I heard them, liked them. But they are 18k and for that money I'd rather take a set of Neumann 430 + 750 subs instead and still have money left.

 

[Sancus]

Hmm. Not saying you are wrong to have doubts but I highly doubt this is a lie, he makes his living building speakers with the sole aim of eliminating distortion of any kind and it is fairly easy to independently measure such a thing. What would lying with a test like this achieve, besides putting his reputation on the line? His frequency response measurements have been verified in independent tests. Read a bit more about him and you will realise he knows what he is doing… Masters of Physics and Metallurgy, Doctor of Materials Sciences, Project Lead of Linn speakers in the 80s responsible for the isobarik models.

Regardless of any person's credentials, you need to run claims through a common sense filter. The speaker you linked is 400mm high x 200mm wide and, while it's not stated on the page, could at the most have a 6-7" woofer. The graph claims <1% THD at 100hz and 110dB SPL. No test conditions are specified, not even distance. If the distance is shorter than 1m and/or a pair of speakers is being measured, and/or the speaker is in a corner, it might be a real measurement. But the fact that no test conditions are specified should make you very skeptical.

It seems very improbable that the claim could be true for 1 speaker, 110dB @ 1m. The KH420, the actual speaker in this thread, has a very good 10"(2-3x the driver area) woofer in a significantly larger box. At 98dB and 100hz it is already at 1% THD. So the referenced speaker is somehow playing 12dB louder than a KH420 while having lower distortion? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[mmi]

Regardless of any person's credentials, you need to run claims through a common sense filter. The speaker you linked is 400mm high x 200mm wide and, while it's not stated on the page, could at the most have a 6-7" woofer. The graph claims <1% THD at 100hz and 110dB SPL. No test conditions are specified, not even distance. If the distance is shorter than 1m and/or a pair of speakers is being measured, and/or the speaker is in a corner, it might be a real measurement. But the fact that no test conditions are specified should make you very skeptical.

It seems very improbable that the claim could be true for 1 speaker, 110dB @ 1m. The KH420, the actual speaker in this thread, has a very good 10"(2-3x the driver area) woofer in a significantly larger box. At 98dB and 100hz it is already at 1% THD. So the referenced speaker is somehow playing 12dB louder than a KH420 while having lower distortion? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

No worries I’ll ask him about his measurement set up and get back to you. I don’t want to distract on this thread much further, but I believe a public conversation like this shouldn’t go unanswered as it could be reputation affecting. I see too much of that here.

 

[mmi]

Regardless of any person's credentials, you need to run claims through a common sense filter. The speaker you linked is 400mm high x 200mm wide and, while it's not stated on the page, could at the most have a 6-7" woofer. The graph claims <1% THD at 100hz and 110dB SPL. No test conditions are specified, not even distance. If the distance is shorter than 1m and/or a pair of speakers is being measured, and/or the speaker is in a corner, it might be a real measurement. But the fact that no test conditions are specified should make you very skeptical.

It seems very improbable that the claim could be true for 1 speaker, 110dB @ 1m. The KH420, the actual speaker in this thread, has a very good 10"(2-3x the driver area) woofer in a significantly larger box. At 98dB and 100hz it is already at 1% THD. So the referenced speaker is somehow playing 12dB louder than a KH420 while having lower distortion? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Hi, see response below. Your doubts were correct. Still very good, but nowhere near the spl @1m as assumed. Thanks for your persistence!

“The critic is correct in that distortion measurements were made at 30 cm from the speaker in order that the noise/signal was adequate to measure these very low distortions using the Omnimic test procedure - at 1 m the noise even in rural Wangi Wangi at a quiet time is too large and swamps the distortion (ideally one needs an anechoic chamber). The actual SPL was around 95 dB at 1m - which still makes these distortion measurements pretty good! I have made this qualification in some of my previous posts but did not do it this time because I was making other more general points about distortion and just wanted a fill-in diagram.”

 

[Sancus]

Hi, see response below. Your doubts were correct. Still very good, but nowhere near the spl @1m as assumed. Thanks for your persistence!

“The critic is correct in that distortion measurements were made at 30 cm from the speaker in order that the noise/signal was adequate to measure these very low distortions using the Omnimic test procedure - at 1 m the noise even in rural Wangi Wangi at a quiet time is too large and swamps the distortion (ideally one needs an anechoic chamber). The actual SPL was around 95 dB at 1m - which still makes these distortion measurements pretty good! I have made this qualification in some of my previous posts but did not do it this time because I was making other more general points about distortion and just wanted a fill-in diagram.”

That's a great response, to the point and honest. But yeah, agreed, the numbers are believable for 95dB(especially non-anechoic) and still very good.

Anyway, I don't want to keep posting about this other speaker in the KH420 thread. If the maker is confident in his overall measurements he could send one in to Amir to be measured, ASR is pretty high profile and I'm sure people would appreciate another quality 3-way option. Especially given the price seems reasonable(2600USD/pair). It would also provide him very high quality data.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Since the KH420 is much cheaper than 8361, is there any reason to choose the 8361 over it?

 

[dfuller]

Since the KH420 is much cheaper than 8361, is there any reason to choose the 8361 over it?

8361 is smaller and has effectively no minimum integration distance.

 

[thewas]

8361 is smaller and has effectively no minimum integration distance.

Also has better vertical directivity which can be advantageous at close console or desk reflections and also has integrated room correction (GLM) which the purely analogue domain KH420 doesn't which on the other hand has other advantages. In the end @Pearljam5000 must finally realise that everything is a compromise and there will never be THE unique optimal loudspeakers but everyone must find which one suits better HIS personal requirements and taste so these quite tiring repetitive questions about "which is better?" are not really expedient.

 

[Blockader]

Since the KH420 is much cheaper than 8361, is there any reason to choose the 8361 over it?

8361

+better controlled vertical directivity.

KH 420

+slightly higher max SPL
+most likely less IMD(coaxial & doppler effect)

I think controlled vertical directivity is more important than 3db-6db increase in max SPL. KH 420's are 25% cheaper than 8361's in EU. This was the reason why I bought 420's. I use KH 420's with KH 750 subwoofers x2 crossed at 80hz. Midrange sounds clearer with subs based on my sighted A/B comparisons.

 

[AudioJester]

8361

+better controlled vertical directivity.

KH 420

+slightly higher max SPL
+most likely less IMD(coaxial & doppler effect)

I think controlled vertical directivity is more important than 3db-6db increase in max SPL. KH 420's are 25% cheaper than 8361's in EU. This was the reason why I bought 420's. I use KH 420's with KH 750 subwoofers x2 crossed at 80hz. Midrange sounds clearer with subs based on my sighted A/B comparisons.

I see this comment a lot - subs "relieve" other drivers and mids sound cleaner.
Surely this would be measurable? Distortion measurements?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Also has better vertical directivity which can be advantageous at close console or desk reflections and also has integrated room correction (GLM) which the purely analogue domain KH420 doesn't which on the other hand has other advantages. In the end @Pearljam5000 must finally realise that everything is a compromise and there will never be THE unique optimal loudspeakers but everyone must find which one suits better HIS personal requirements and taste so these quite tiring repetitive questions about "which is better?" are not really expedient.

When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them

 

[Frgirard]

When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them

Did you think they are a great difference between a kh420 and kali in8?
Did you know the XTZ divine ? May be the right choice or the focal aria 936?

 

[Frank Dernie]

When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them

I have never bought a car which cost more than my HiFi. I bought my first HiFi components 54 years ago. I put a lot of effort into making sure what I buy is what I like and keep things a long time, the quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.

My current main speakers are 25 years old, having DSP actives which are 6 years old and now hardware incompatible with the latest firmware makes somebody like me who does keep stuff a long time concerned about anything expensive and digital.

I realise most people lose interest or have an urge for something new far more often than I do so not a problem for most.

Digital stuff which works perfectly adequately gets obsolete far too soon to be worth spending a lot of money on IMO.

 

[AudioJester]

When speakers cost X2 of what my car is worth I have to be more than sure I made the right choice, not to mention its almost impossible to sell them as used later in my country.
So obviously if budget wasn't an issue I would ask way less questions and just buy them

Bro, the amount of energy and time you have put into asking the same questions in so many threads over the past few years here - you could have worked another job and saved up to buy any speakers by now!
Your obsessing over details and overinvesting, i agree buy the IN8 and just enjoy the music. My son uses the IN5v2 to compose - they are awesome speakers for the money.