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Neumann KH420 Review (Studio Monitor)

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    Votes: 2 0.5%
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FeddyLost

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I wonder if Neumann has plans to develop an 810 and 870 with DSP.
I doubt this very much.
They have 7.1 bass management and flat FR "as is".
Integrated DSP is more useful in smaller home studios that usually don't need such expensive monsters (or hi-fi).
So, 750DSP definitely have its market share (bedroom production with 2.1) and bigger guys (almost) do not.
I think, pedantic german engineers from Neumann have feedback from customers and calculated all pro and contra a lot of times.

PS DSP essentially is a kludge that helps to those who don't have professionally built studio.
 

FrantzM

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I doubt this very much.
They have 7.1 bass management and flat FR "as is".
Integrated DSP is more useful in smaller home studios that usually don't need such expensive monsters (or hi-fi).
So, 750DSP definitely have its market share (bedroom production with 2.1) and bigger guys (almost) do not.
I think, pedantic german engineers from Neumann have feedback from customers and calculated all pro and contra a lot of times.

PS DSP essentially is a kludge that helps to those who don't have professionally built studio.
I wouldn't call it a "kludge". Passive acoustic treatment can incur serious cost. In spite of that most studios do not have the best acoustics. A way to mitigate , DSP, is often needed. Linearization of drivers and general speaker can also be a key driver in the adoption of DSP.

To get back to the KH 420, It is no bigger than many speakers audiophile have in their rooms... 13 x 25.4 x 17.5" (WxHxD) and 78 lbs/35 kg is in the category of "svelte" for audiophile speakers. They routinely weigh over 100 lbs... as an example the Magico A3 is :44”H x 11”D x 9.25”W (112cm x 27cm x 23cm) and weigh 110 lbs. (49.89 kg)..
All and all a superlative speaker.
 

Frgirard

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I doubt this very much.
They have 7.1 bass management and flat FR "as is".
Integrated DSP is more useful in smaller home studios that usually don't need such expensive monsters (or hi-fi).
So, 750DSP definitely have its market share (bedroom production with 2.1) and bigger guys (almost) do not.
I think, pedantic german engineers from Neumann have feedback from customers and calculated all pro and contra a lot of times.

PS DSP essentially is a kludge that helps to those who don't have professionally built studio.
Dsp=latency
 

FeddyLost

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All and all a superlative speaker.
It would be nice to get rid of all those "industrial" solutions like bunch of cheap op-amps and electrlytic caps in signal chain and compare results with stock. Maybe even exchange switched PSU to linear.
If Neumann monitors are done like PSI (and I'm almost sure are), there are lot of components that can be exchanged to fancy ones. Or at least not 40+ years old design.
People says that even upgrade of small nearfields works really well...
 

dfuller

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In the printed version of the KH310 review, soundandrecording included this comparison of the Neumann dome with "a dome midrange of the same size from a different manufacturer"

Left Neumann, right Other @2khz

View attachment 204606

I don´t know if there is or was a third midrange dome of that size other than the ATC?

Edit: They write "In comparison, a calotte of the same size from another manufacturer."
I am assuming it was a dome from the picture, but they did not actually write that.
There was a Dynaudio one that the O300 and O410 used, IIRC.
 

FrantzM

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It would be nice to get rid of all those "industrial" solutions like bunch of cheap op-amps and electrlytic caps in signal chain and compare results with stock. Maybe even exchange switched PSU to linear.
If Neumann monitors are done like PSI (and I'm almost sure are), there are lot of components that can be exchanged to fancy ones. Or at least not 40+ years old design.
People says that even upgrade of small nearfields works really well...
As you may have noticed by now, we are about measurements aka numbers and/or graphs. Can you prove that Linear PSU are superior to Switched in this application? And while you are it, care to let me know about the performance of the KH 420 amplifiers?
So "people say", suddenly, is a proof?

Peace.
 
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Vintage57

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I wonder if Neumann has plans to develop an 810 and 870 with DSP. The software had to support multichannel first, though, if they want to keep the multichannel-abilities of the 810 and 870. The 810 has roughly 2x the power of a 750, more fitting for the 420. The 810 is huge, though, and its form factor not very practical for home use, IMHO.
If you can get over the size they’re a perfect match for the KH420. I use 3 KH805’s to correct for room effects, IOW an analog DSP.
The result is nothing short of amazing. Definitely an End Game system.
The volume and impact has to be heard to be appreciated
I was able to buy the KH805 for $1,000 broken in by others. My only condition is that they came with original box and packaging.
Something to consider.
 

fineMen

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The speculation of IMD is pointless without measurements.
Sorry for not reading Your reply fully. The topic went on, and people aren't that interested in my input anyway.

I advertise to take the plunge with IM measurements for long now. You bet, the interest is nil :oops:
 

test1223

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Sorry for not reading Your reply fully. The topic went on, and people aren't that interested in my input anyway.

I advertise to take the plunge with IM measurements for long now. You bet, the interest is nil :oops:
I like a lot of your comments even if I sometimes disagree with some statements. The community it's that large therefore you can't expect a lot of feedback and discussion.

Yes IMD would be very nice. One problem is to get high snr and consistency without an anechoic chamber.
 

LTig

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It would be nice to get rid of all those "industrial" solutions like bunch of cheap op-amps and electrlytic caps in signal chain and compare results with stock. Maybe even exchange switched PSU to linear.
If Neumann monitors are done like PSI (and I'm almost sure are), there are lot of components that can be exchanged to fancy ones. Or at least not 40+ years old design.
People says that even upgrade of small nearfields works really well...
You may have missed some threads about opamp rolling and replacing caps in the signal chain. Measurements tell a different story. In most cases there is no improvement, sometimes things get much worse. So, if you have no schematics and you are not a very experienced EE stay far away from messing with working equipment.
 

dfuller

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It would be nice to get rid of all those "industrial" solutions like bunch of cheap op-amps and electrlytic caps in signal chain and compare results with stock. Maybe even exchange switched PSU to linear.
If Neumann monitors are done like PSI (and I'm almost sure are), there are lot of components that can be exchanged to fancy ones. Or at least not 40+ years old design.
People says that even upgrade of small nearfields works really well...
I can't see how that would actually improve things. Electrolytics, maybe... but at those levels, I highly doubt there's any obvious distortion present.
 

pseudoid

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opamp rolling
Maybe the person who coined this terminology did not fully understand why people did the "tube rolling".
It was really based on the need to replace tubes that were DOA, not for the 'fun' of it!
 

Blockader

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ATC's dome mid is considered to be the best in the world ( from what i read)
How does the KH420s dome mid compares to it?
First a bit of history:

Neumann bought Klein Hummel in 2009. That's why Neumann studio monitor model names start with KH.

K&H used ATC middome in 2005's~ in their model Klein Hummel O 500C:
3242.jpg

Basically K & H used ATC's middome before, studied it and improved the design even further in terms of non linear distortion. Neumann's middome has higher max SPL than ATC's. (up to 12db) Both middomes have very smooth response.

This is the quasi anechoic response of ATC middome:

ATC75.JPG


I couldn't find response of Neumann's middome now. Tymphany Peerless India is manufacturing Neumann's middome drivers and they have different response & distortion values than middomes available in Tymphany's catalogue. However, checking response of Tymphany's customer available middomes can give you an idea about how competent Tymphany is in making middomes.
 

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jhaider

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Tymphany Peerless India is manufacturing Neumann's middome drivers and they have different response & distortion values than middomes available in Tymphany's catalogue.

Note that Tymphany and Peerless India are different companies.

Tymphany was originally formed by Ken Kantor et al. to market the “LAT” subwoofer design. Somewhere along the way it turned into a vehicle for a leveraged buyout of dst, which was basically the Danish drive unit industry (ScanSpeak, Peerless, and Vifa). ScanSpeak later left Tymphany through a management buyout.

Peerless India may have started as a subsidiary of Peerless to make stuff there, but I’m not sure and there’s no connection now. I don’t know much about them, except that they make some of the gr research drivers.
 

fineMen

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Yes IMD would be very nice. One problem is to get high snr and consistency without an anechoic chamber.

Erin presents the IM of raw drivers already, The results are shockingly bad: 1..2..3 mm of excursion and one ends up with a contamination by IM of 3..10%.

But that is only for the motor's contribution alone. Many drivers, even costly and highly regarded ones may show on some cone/surround resonances ten-folds of that value.

Once an enthusiast for 'quality' would hear the IM in isolation, he would never anymore accept the possibility of it to occur; "female voices" ...

The lately introduced "multi-tone" test-signal is of no use, because it is too unspecific. One has to seek for the IM, but which OEM would do so as to promote his product with happily found problems in this field? So, the prob is defined as either a non-issue, or a mythical thing.

Sorry, I forgot the original question?

Ah - why doesn't Erin use the technique deployed for single drivers for speaker-boxes also? Yes, it would, see above, need to seek out for design-specific problems. Hence it wouldn't be the same for all, and is thus considered "unfair"?

I just guess the 420 will show less IM than its competitor from Genelec, judged by the THD graphs.
 

FeddyLost

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As you may have noticed by now, we are about measurements aka numbers and/or graphs
Exactly.
And there is an opinion that just good measurements are not equal to ultimate sound quality. Gladly, I can't verify this, because my qualification is worse than measurement mic and I follow "better measurements" way.
But if I'd have time, resources and competence, it would be nice to play with "already good enough" design .. maybe.
Some people mentioned that they was able to tri-amp passive big ATC in the way that they outperformed actives. But at ridiculous price of equipment attached, for sure.
if you have no schematics and you are not a very experienced EE stay far away from messing with working equipment.
With such price.
Of course, I'm sane.
but at those levels, I highly doubt there's any obvious distortion present
Not obvious, I think. Otherwise it wouldn't be accepted by customers.
But I really think that every industrial equipment can be slightly improved ... if the cost is not an option.
 

Pearljam5000

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Exactly.
And there is an opinion that just good measurements are not equal to ultimate sound quality. Gladly, I can't verify this, because my qualification is worse than measurement mic and I follow "better measurements" way.
But if I'd have time, resources and competence, it would be nice to play with "already good enough" design .. maybe.
Some people mentioned that they was able to tri-amp passive big ATC in the way that they outperformed actives. But at ridiculous price of equipment attached, for sure.

With such price.
Of course, I'm sane.

Not obvious, I think. Otherwise it wouldn't be accepted by customers.
But I really think that every industrial equipment can be slightly improved ... if the cost is not an option.
In this video the active SCM50 sound much better
 

DSJR

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Some people mentioned that they was able to tri-amp passive big ATC in the way that they outperformed actives.
You can't - end of!!!!! The passive crossover can't fully blend the mid dome at either end of its passband in the three way models. The active crossovers have phase adjustments too which the passive one lacks and there was an ATC service paper I had which gave precise instructions on setting the drivers up for phase coherence (not sure I have this now sadly as a lot went in our last house move).

What wealthy but largely ignorant enthusiastic lay people say is one thing, but where ATC is concerned, I trusted THE DESIGNERS of the things who were able to show simply why they did what they did and to what benefit - so there :D I was able to demonstrate quite easily how much better the actives were, even if the amps used were specifically tailored to the drivers concerned and arguably not much use outside of their designed function.

With that brand and I'm sure others today, you want a bigger sound? Get a bigger speaker!!! I'm sure Neumann and Genelec would agree - and one of their smaller models perched on a sub each IS a bigger speaker systrem in my book!
 

thewas

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In this video the active SCM50 sound much better
The 2 versions don't have the same the crossover transfer functions and thus the FR and directivities are different, so this result cannot be used for generalisations like "active is better". Active can be better but due to other reasons, mainly as more complex crossover functions can be implemented without getting insanely complex or expensive.
 
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