• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Neumann KH150

tktran303

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
536
Likes
893
And the small Neumann KH 120 with EQ and Sub has 9.1 preference score... so this tells us all or nothing.

Again: not all of us are able to place a big 3 way (or 4 or x way for that matter) speaker in our living room and obviously even smaller 2 way designs can sound beautiful if used within their limits. To get more spl, bass extension or dynamic just add one or two woofers, if you have room for them.

I suppose I could perfectly live with about the 39 Hz the KH 150 provides (should be slightly deeper in room) since I only hear stereo music (no TV or HT). If not I would add 1 or 2 KH 750: done!

The score with Sub rating is theoretical score with a “perfect sub”. That is, it removes the low frequency limitation of the speaker, and takes it all the way down to 16Hz. Like if you have the theoretical ideal subwoofer.

In practice, integrating a subwoofer into a room is a non-trivial task, that involves measurements, creating another crossover point, finely tuned in-room measurements, and linearising phase and thus removing group delay.

If that sounds like a whole bunch of gobbledygook, it’s because that is what loudspeaker designer or on-location sound engineers do when they design big 3 or 4 ways, or integrate multi subwoofers into the performance venue. And they don’t even have to deal with your room (designing for anechoic or outdoors)

Have you ever noticed how many home audio enthusiasts might prefer listening to music without subs, but have subs on with movies? It’s not because music doesn’t have sub-bass (it does) it’s because sometimes when having the subwoofer(s) on, it doesn’t always sound quite right. They don’t have the “ideal subwoofer”
 
Last edited:

Grotti

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
343
Likes
646
The score with Sub rating is theoretical score with a “perfect sub”. That is, assumes perfect extension down to 16Hz with an ideal subwoofer. In practice, integrating integrating a subwoofer into a room is a non-trivial task, that involves measurements, adding another crossover, finely tuned in-room measurement, and linearising phase and thus removing group delay. If that sounds like a whole bunch of gobbledygook, it’s because that is what loudspeaker engineers do when they design big 3 or 4 ways (and they don’t even have to deal with your room).

Have you ever noticed how many listeners prefer listening to music without subs, but have subs on with movies. It’s not just be because music doesn’t have sub-bass (bass below 50Hz) it’s because sometimes having the subwoofer on, it doesn’t sound quite right.
I am perfectly aware of the problems related to a seamless integration of one or multiple subwoofers. And you would face the same problems with the Infinty loudspeaker btw....

With the MA 1 the integration should be a lot easier than doing it with the help of REW or by trial and error (the last one being supposedly the reason why so many 2.1 systems sound like crap).
 

dshreter

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
750
Likes
1,076
The score with Sub rating is theoretical score with a “perfect sub”. That is, it removes the low frequency limitation of the speaker, and takes it all the way down to 16Hz. Like if you have the theoretical ideal subwoofer.

In practice, integrating a subwoofer into a room is a non-trivial task, that involves measurements, creating another crossover point, finely tuned in-room measurements, and linearising phase and thus removing group delay.

If that sounds like a whole bunch of gobbledygook, it’s because that is what loudspeaker designer or on-location sound engineers do when they design big 3 or 4 ways, or integrate multi subwoofers into the performance venue. And they don’t even have to deal with your room (designing for anechoic or outdoors)

Have you ever noticed how many home audio enthusiasts might prefer listening to music without subs, but have subs on with movies? It’s not because music doesn’t have sub-bass (it does) it’s because sometimes when having the subwoofer(s) on, it doesn’t always sound quite right. They don’t have the “ideal subwoofer”
It is even harder to integrate Infiniti IL60s because the subwoofers can't be moved separate from the speaker - the equilateral triangle for main speakers is rarely ideal placement for subwoofers, and the IL60s don't get you around this fact. The additional placement options given by a separate subwoofer can definitely be a benefit.

You're right that integrating a sub isn't easy... but it's not that hard either, and I would hope a worthwhile exercise when installing thousands of dollars of speakers.
 

danbei

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
32
Likes
28
Well have you noticed the only speaker that has a preference score of 8, so far, is a 4 way?


The single driver that does DC to 40KHz at theatre reference levels (85dB at listening position with 20dB dynamic range) doesn’t exist…
You are opposing something that I did not say. I very much agree that a speaker designer will most probably need multiple ways to achieve good performances
 

tktran303

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
536
Likes
893
You are opposing something that I did not say. I very much agree that a speaker designer will most probably need multiple ways to achieve good performances

Didn’t you say 42 way?

Sorry I thought you were being sarcastic or flippant.
 

ccc118

Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
37
Likes
30
Man the $1750 price point just sounds so out of this world relative to that woofer size and it being a two way. The performance better be absolutely undisputed as top knotch to command that price.
I was really surprised at the price also. I know there's additional features like DSP, but there's a $1k difference between the kh120 and kh150.
 

DJBonoBobo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
874
Likes
1,716
Location
any germ
The KH150 seems to be bigger than the KH120. Based on the names of some files i found in a subfolder of my new MA1-installation i guess they plan to release a KH120II as well. Just speculating, but probably the KH120 + DSP and AES67.

View attachment 202926
Pictures are placeholders, by the way, they all show the KH80. I am only referring to the filenames. I guess what these 3 (750, 120II, 150) have in common is that there are AES67 versions planned. No further info though, just speculating. But seems reasonable after the info about the KH150.

Just as a follow-up: In the new version of the MA1-software they re-organized those files, but the new folders and some files even more clearly suggest they are indeed planning a "KH 120 II AES67":

1662192449388.png


1662192517106.png


I don´t have any more information about this. There a some pictures in those folders, but they look exactly like a KH80 - so most probably just a placeholder.
 

Grotti

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 19, 2020
Messages
343
Likes
646
Soooooo KH150 when?

Just as a follow-up: In the new version of the MA1-software they re-organized those files, but the new folders and some files even more clearly suggest they are indeed planning a "KH 120 II AES67":

View attachment 228367

View attachment 228368

I don´t have any more information about this. There a some pictures in those folders, but they look exactly like a KH80 - so most probably just a placeholder.
I don't think that it's just a placeholder: it would be the next logical step. Thank you for the information!
 

gparaskevas

Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
8
Likes
4
Neumann kh150 are representing a new line of monitors from neumann along with kh80. They are dsp, class d equiped and have less in common with kh120 and kh310. I suppose both models(kh120/310) will be renewed with class d and dsp engine and some other improvements that will bump their price as well. Unfortunately for us for the time being.
 

CERN

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2022
Messages
6
Likes
9
Wow. In Australia a pair of KH150s is listed as $6,800.

For reference, from the same supplier a pair of KH120s is $1,999 and a pair of KH310s is $5,998.

Insane.
Damn you poor Australians always get robbed with pricing. I thought it was bad in Canada... Doesn't help that Neumann is price gouging with these either. Best to buy these kinds of things from Thomann anyway.
 

Ilkless

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
1,475
Likes
2,816
Location
Singapore
Frankly the reactions to KH150 pricing here is more a reflection of how low the KH120/KH310 were priced, and how low pricing was kept at for so long. The KH150 is a more complex speaker in many ways, developed amid inflation leaving costs a far cry from when the 120/310 were being developed. Compare to how much the likes of Harbeth charge for a Europe-made 6.5-inch 2-way passive in the hi-fi space!
 

SlothRock

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2021
Messages
94
Likes
120
I don’t know how anyone justifies a $1000/speaker price difference between this and the KH120. They offer DSP, sure. They offer class D, great. They’re using cheaper plastic material vs metal, not great. They offer 1.25 inch more woofer size on each speaker. In no world does that = $2000 extra (for two speakers) over the 120 in my mind unless these defy space and time altogether and produce audio nirvana the likes of which my ears can never recover from.

I was suspecting an additional $500/speaker which I think is more in line with the minor subwoofer bump in size, the DSP features and class D. Would much rather spend $1650 on the KH 750 sub and blow these guys out of the water paired with the KH120’s while still saving $500
 

Ilkless

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
1,475
Likes
2,816
Location
Singapore
I don’t know how anyone justifies a $1000/speaker price difference between this and the KH120. They offer DSP, sure. They offer class D, great. They’re using cheaper plastic material vs metal, not great. They offer 1.25 more inch woofer size on each speaker. In no world does that = $2000 extra (for two speakers) over the 120 in my mind unless these defy space and time altogether and produce audio nirvana the likes of which my ears can never recover from.

I was suspecting an additional $500/speaker which I think is more in line with the minor subwoofer bump in size, the DSP features and class D. Would much rather spend $1650 on the KH 750 sub and blow these guys out of the water paired with the KH120’s while still saving $500

Distortion data posted by Neumann and discussed earlier in this thread suggests state-of-the-art Purifi-level distortion and max SPL for the form factor. An argument can be made that the KH120 or the analog Genelec 80x0 are the sweet spot for long-term serviceability and performance - and the price range where SOTA FR and directivity performance start to appear for compact speakers. But to call the KH150 a poor value in a world when it offers DSP + biamplification + room correction seems rather extreme when there are practically thousands of esoteric passive hifi speakers that at best equal it and none that outright beat it.

Also - if you are crossing to a sub with the KH120s, max SPL between 200Hz to the subwoofer crossover is compromised. There will essentially be a dip in max SPL/compression because you can't cross the KH750 that high without localisation issues. Let's not resort to armchair setup design without looking at data.

Let's make a comparison to among the few SOTA passive standmounts in the price ballpark - LS50 Metas + a Hypex NC500 + MiniDSP Flex is going to clock in about $2500 - $3000 depending on where you live. The LS50M will have significantly compromised extension and max SPL. But somehow you don't see people here denouncing a passive setup with similar capabilities built around an LS50M.

Also - cheaper plastic? Are we dealing with pearljam5000 Part 2 round here right now? Look at the actual acoustic performance, not audiophile intuition about how material properties correlate to the sound output.
 

TurtlePaul

Senior Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
312
Likes
474
Also - cheaper plastic? Are we dealing with pearljam5000 Part 2 round here right now? Look at the actual acoustic performance, not audiophile intuition about how material properties correlate to the sound output.

Difficult to call it audiophile intuition when Neumann and Genelec made up this particular intuition. The material can’t matter when discussing the KH 120 or Genelecs and then not matter when discussing the KH 150. Does it do anything or not?
 

Scgorg

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
90
Likes
240
Location
Norway
Difficult to call it audiophile intuition when Neumann and Genelec made up this particular intuition. The material can’t matter when discussing the KH 120 or Genelecs and then not matter when discussing the KH 150. Does it do anything or not?
Accusing ilkless of hypocrisy is not doing much for anyone's argument here. I have not seem him ever state that it "matters" when talking about KH120 or Genelecs, beyond the smoother shapes such material choices can allow at lower pricepoints (and larger internal volumes for the same external volume). Ultimately the end result is what matters, and if it is good I doubt most people care very much about the exact material used, ilkless included. If you look at the range of speakers that both genelec and neumann produce, there's a whole host of different materials used for different models, most people do not call Neumann's or Genelec's competence into question because of these loudspeakers.

Of course, some people - we have one of them in this very thread - care very much, but this just betrays their subjectivism about this particular issue.
 
Top Bottom