Neumann KH120ii vs Amphion One15

[pazmag]

Hi All
I recently parted company with my Event Opals because one developed a fault and since the company went bust there was no point trying to continue with them. I am professional mix engineer so I needed something quick and so purchased a pair of Kali IN8 V2's which are amazing for the £500 I paid for them. I'm now looking to add some small family accurate bookshelf monitors to my setup and was pretty much set on the Neumann KH120ii's.....but....despite the poor reception on this site, I am curious about Amphion One15's and why Amphions in general are being used by a large proportion of top mix engineers? I know that speakers are a matter of taste but surely, if mixes done on these translate poorly then they wouldn't be so widely used? NS10's I hear you say !! and yes, I've used and owned many pairs and I know the spiel.....but it still makes no sense to me that a speaker with such an uneven frequency response compared to the Neumann's would be preferred, especially at over two times the prices.....thoughts?

 

[unpluggged]

why Amphions in general are being used by a large proportion of top mix engineers?

Let me guess. Marketing/advertisement? And who are these "top mix engineers" specifically?

My advice: just get the Neumanns. They are proven and the manufacturer does not engage in shady business practices.

 

[Sacha]

What shady business practices does Amphion take part in, exactly? Marketing? There are undeniably many famous mixers and producers using them if you follow the industry and keep appraised of trends. If that is a metric for which to make a purchasing decision or not is up to you.

 

[unpluggged]

What shady business practices does Amphion take part in, exactly?

Where did I claim that?

There are undeniably many famous mixers and producers using them if you follow the industry and keep appraised of trends.

You are the second person in this thread to make such a claim without elaborating. And many producers also use the infamous NS10, but it does not mean the latter is any good.

I suggested to get something proven to be objectively good for a reasonable price from a reputable manufacturer, and to look only at the objective data. The argument of "some of the top producers use this product" is pure marketing and should be taken with criticism.

 

[dfuller]

At this point I can't recommend the DSP Neumanns; they have had too many faults with firmware and the standby circuit for me to say they're a worthwhile purchase. This is unfortunate as there really isn't anything worth bothering with between the Kali INs and the ~$5000/pr usual suspects like KH310s or PMC 6s (yes, yes, I know, PMC bad, etc etc) or Mesanovic CDM65s.

I am curious about Amphion One15's and why Amphions in general are being used by a large proportion of top mix engineers?

More and more they're falling out of favor, FWIW; lots of popped tweeters and poor support tends to do that. Anyway, reason they were used (other than marketing) is because people found them useful, though from my experience with them they're just kind of cloudy and muddy sounding in the low mids and unremarkable everywhere else. A friend of mine swears they reproduce transients very well, but that wasn't my experience at all.

What they do do well, if anything, is they have an unusually broad vertical beamwidth because of their low crossover point.

Where did I claim that?

Right here:

[...] and the manufacturer does not engage in shady business practices.

 

[jhaider]

At this point I can't recommend the DSP Neumanns; they have had too many faults with firmware and the standby circuit for me to say they're a worthwhile purchase. This is unfortunate as there really isn't anything worth bothering with between the Kali INs and the ~$5000/pr usual suspects like KH310s or PMC 6s (yes, yes, I know, PMC bad, etc etc) or Mesanovic CDM65s.

I don't know if the standby circuit on my KH 120 IIs is any good - my old KH 80 DSPs had a glitchy one for sure. However, one way to avoid the issue is to use a signal-sensing power strip. The one I bought (from my electric company) is sensitive enough that an RME ADI-2 will turn on the remote outlets.

Otherwise, personally have not had firmware issues. MA 1 seems to be improving with every iteration too.

This is unfortunate as there really isn't anything worth bothering with between the Kali INs and the ~$5000/pr usual suspects like KH310s or PMC 6s (yes, yes, I know, PMC bad, etc etc) or Mesanovic CDM65s.

JBL 705/708, though maybe UK pricing is absurd.

As for Amphion, I reviewed the consumer version. You can see measurements and observations at that link. They seem to be tuned for relatively flat power response, which is different from a lot of speakers.

I don't mix, but I've yet to hear anything I like better than the KH 120 II's I currently use for nearfield listening. Admittedly I haven't tried JBL 705i nearfield, because of the hassle of setting up the extra BSS box and now Neumann seems to nearly equal 705's previously peerless bass headroom for the size, and looks nicer IMO. But 705/708 are great speakers too. In terms of headroom 708 is probably going to be the closest you will find on the market to your old Event Opals. Dunno about UK cost or availability though.

 

[pazmag]

Let me guess. Marketing/advertisement? And who are these "top mix engineers" specifically?

My advice: just get the Neumanns. They are proven and the manufacturer does not engage in shady business practices.

Specifically?….Dave Pensado, Jacquire king, Mitch McCarthy…..I could go on….their CV’s are undoubtedly better than either of ours…..in particular I’ve been following Pensado for years and respect him enormously….so when he advocates a particular monitor, it holds some sway without necessarily being right. I’ve been doing this for over 25 years so I’m not easily drawn in by “marketing hype” or “shady business practises” as you put it. I may well opt for the Neumanns but I’m still interested in what good mix engineers see in the Amphions….

 

[pazmag]

Where did I claim that?


You are the second person in this thread to make such a claim without elaborating. And many producers also use the infamous NS10, but it does not mean the latter is any good.

I suggested to get something proven to be objectively good for a reasonable price from a reputable manufacturer, and to look only at the objective data. The argument of "some of the top producers use this product" is pure marketing and should be taken with criticism.

I presume that you’re not a mix engineer because “objective data” is only one consideration in our world….translation is all important….and for whatever reason, the ubiquitous NS-10 translated exceptionally well despite being anything but flat and utterly dreadful to listen to….so….it may well be that Amphions translate well despite not being as “technically” good a speaker as Neumanns. That doesn’t mean that one should buy Amphions purely for translation but it’s a reasonable consideration and not be flippantly rejected as hype or marketing…

 

[bodhi]

I presume that you’re not a mix engineer because “objective data” is only one consideration in our world….translation is all important….and for whatever reason, the ubiquitous NS-10 translated exceptionally well despite being anything but flat and utterly dreadful to listen to….so….it may well be that Amphions translate well despite not being as “technically” good a speaker as Neumanns. That doesn’t mean that one should buy Amphions purely for translation but it’s a reasonable consideration and not be flippantly rejected as hype or marketing…

You don't need to be a mix engineer to know that professionals are people like the rest of us and in most fields I know people argue endlessly about which tools to use. Still, everybody seems to get things done and for those who don't, the reason is rarely the tools.

As you can't really get into head of some other pro, you don't get much benefit from their recommendations. Other than that tool they recommend is (probably) not completely useless.

 

[pazmag]

You don't need to be a mix engineer to know that professionals are people like the rest of us and in most fields I know people argue endlessly about which tools to use. Still, everybody seems to get things done and for those who don't, the reason is rarely the tools.

As you can't really get into head of some other pro, you don't get much benefit from their recommendations. Other than that tool they recommend is (probably) not completely useless.

I disagree with you on a number of counts. Firstly there are relatively few professions which rely on “translation” to the extent that mix engineers do….arguing about which tools to use in most other professions will focus on the suitability of the tools from “their” point of view not the consumer….I've never heard a mechanic praising a particular screwdriver because “the client preferred it”….
Secondly, I think your statement about getting things done and the tools not being relevant is also incorrect. I’ve been mixing for many years and at times with speakers that we’re not up to the job, resulting in poor translation to consumer systems…..are you suggesting that a surgeon with a blunt scalpel shouldn’t blame the tool despite “getting the job done” albeit with limited success?
Lastly, you don’t have to get into some other Pro’s head to benefit from their recommendations….producers and mix engineers discuss techniques at length and I’m more than happy to try things…if they work for us then great….that’s how we learn…if not then no harm some….why are you on this forum if you don’t think that you can benefit from other peoples opinions? I'm certainly not arrogant enough to think I have all the answers so I’m happy to ask the opinions of others…..

 

[ChrisG]

This is unfortunate as there really isn't anything worth bothering with between the Kali INs and the ~$5000/pr usual suspects like KH310s or PMC 6s (yes, yes, I know, PMC bad, etc etc) or Mesanovic CDM65s.

I hope the Genelec 80-series is worth bothering with - I have a pair arriving today. They certainly have better measurements than the Kali INs.


With regards to Amphion monitors specifically, it's entirely possible (and indeed quite likely) that any given mixing engineer is likely using them with room correction. If they're non-flat, but have sensible directivity control and low-enough distortion, then they could probably be EQ'd to result in something acceptable.


Chris

 

[bodhi]

why are you on this forum if you don’t think that you can benefit from other peoples opinions? I'm certainly not arrogant enough to think I have all the answers so I’m happy to ask the opinions of others…..

Did you check the forum name? It's about audio science which in this case means measured performance of speakers in question. Anecdotal evidence can be entertaining but doesn't really add that much value unless you know a lot about the reviewer, his tastes, his experience, his room etc. It definitely can seem useful if, after praising review, one finds the speaker in question to have exactly the qualities the reviewer raved about. aka the same phenomenon which is meat and potatoes in hifi debates.

btw the blunt scalpel is rather boring straw man. If you have good arguments you don't need to go there.

 

[pazmag]

I hope the Genelec 80-series is worth bothering with - I have a pair arriving today. They certainly have better measurements than the Kali INs.


With regards to Amphion monitors specifically, it's entirely possible (and indeed quite likely) that any given mixing engineer is likely using them with room correction. If they're non-flat, but have sensible directivity control and low-enough distortion, then they could probably be EQ'd to result in something acceptable.

room correction is a good point Chris….though I’d begrudge paying over 3k for something that unusable!

 

[ChrisG]

I agree, they seem to be expensive for what you get. I've designed a few speakers myself, and had a look at what they're up to. I can see where they're coming from, but they're running their tweeters low/hard to get around a difficult midbass driver. While using very similar bass drivers, I used a compression driver to get low enough (1kHz) to avoid the nasty cone breakup in the kHz range.
Perhaps a 1.5" dome would have done better for them, but that would likely require departing from the aluminium-based diaphragms they seem to prefer. A 1.5" aluminium tweeter would likely have some audible breakup modes. Beryllium would help, but that comes with its own set of difficulties.

It's worth noting that I've spent time listening/testing speakers at £140k/pair which were pretty terrible in a lot of ways, so the mediocre measurements of the Amphion monitors don't surprise me in the slightest.
I've also spent some time with a pair of speakers at a mere £21k/pair, which did measure pretty well and sounded decent.


Chris

 

[pazmag]

I agree, they seem to be expensive for what you get. I've designed a few speakers myself, and had a look at what they're up to. I can see where they're coming from, but they're running their tweeters low/hard to get around a difficult midbass driver. While using very similar bass drivers, I used a compression driver to get low enough (1kHz) to avoid the nasty cone breakup in the kHz range.
Perhaps a 1.5" dome would have done better for them, but that would likely require departing from the aluminium-based diaphragms they seem to prefer. A 1.5" aluminium tweeter would likely have some audible breakup modes. Beryllium would help, but that comes with its own set of difficulties.

It's worth noting that I've spent time listening/testing speakers at £140k/pair which were pretty terrible in a lot of ways, so the mediocre measurements of the Amphion monitors don't surprise me in the slightest.
I've also spent some time with a pair of speakers at a mere £21k/pair, which did measure pretty well and sounded decent.


Chris

Thanks Chris, some interesting insights there. It’s all personal and subjective but I’m glad to hear that price doesn’t always equal quality! I’m used to hearing big floorstsnding PMC’s in mastering rooms but they still sound cold and hard to me….perhaps because they’re accurate…who knows?! I’m edging towards the Neumanns at the moment but it’s an interesting debate…

 

[ChrisG]

The only 100% Fool-Proof Absolutely Solid correlation I've found in HiFi is that the price increases with the weight of the product.


IMO, "accurate" doesn't sound "cold/hard" unless you're used to soft/warm. To me, "accurate" sounds "right/correct", but I've spent a lot of time listening to systems that are essentially flat/neutral.

Chris

 

[dfuller]

I don't know if the standby circuit on my KH 120 IIs is any good - my old KH 80 DSPs had a glitchy one for sure. However, one way to avoid the issue is to use a signal-sensing power strip. The one I bought (from my electric company) is sensitive enough that an RME ADI-2 will turn on the remote outlets.

Otherwise, personally have not had firmware issues. MA 1 seems to be improving with every iteration too.

A couple of colleagues have had issues with the 150s not coming out of standby.

 

[kharan]

A couple of colleagues have had issues with the 150s not coming out of standby.

Is it an issue where you can get back to work after turning the speakers on and off and it's an occasional or even frequent time waste, or is it a more important issue?

 

[jhaider]

A couple of colleagues have had issues with the 150s not coming out of standby.

Interesting. The issue with KH 80 is that they randomly turned on.

That said, they’ve improved the circuit. I forgot earlier that my KH 120 II use it now (driven by a JBL SDP-55 rather than the RME for DLBC).

 

[Kyle_PL]

A couple of colleagues have had issues with the 150s not coming out of standby.

On digital SPDIF, digital XLR AES/EBU, or analog XLR? They have "wake up sensitivity" setting? (by software - like Genelec SAM monitors - look at attachment)