Neumann KH120A or Genelec 8030C?

[Pio2001]

Just speculating, given that the 305 and KH120’s on-axis FRs have been perfectly matched, there’s two factors off the top of my head that could lead to this impression:

• The recessed sound power of the KH120’s upper midrange. Less energy being radiated in this range into the room compared to the 305s could impart a bit of a “polite” and more relaxed presentation.
• A difference in the distortion levels of the two speakers’ tweeters. The KH120’s tweeter plays unusually cleanly for its class—the exact same tweeter is used in the KH420. The higher distortion of the 305’s tweeter could lead to the impression of a brighter, more detailed sound, even when its frequency response has been matched to the KH120’s.

Both are possible.
We can see that the JBL, with the equalization that I was using, have more energy, measured from the listening position, than the Neumann from 2000 to 8000 Hz (here measured without any room correction).
The treble setting of the Neumann only affects frequencies above 8000 Hz.

And the H3 distortion of the JBL, around 1%, can also play a role :

I can't measure the harmonic distortion of the Neumann at moderate playback level. All that we see here above 1000 Hz is the noise floor of the Umik-1 microphone :

 

[hyperplanar]

Both are possible.
We can see that the JBL, with the equalization that I was using, have more energy, measured from the listening position, than the Neumann from 2000 to 8000 Hz (here measured without any room correction).
The treble setting of the Neumann only affects frequencies above 8000 Hz.

View attachment 65670

And the H3 distortion of the JBL, around 1%, can also play a role :

View attachment 65671

I can't measure the harmonic distortion of the Neumann at moderate playback level. All that we see here above 1000 Hz is the noise floor of the Umik-1 microphone :

View attachment 65672

Interesting, thanks for those graphs! The dips in the treble response are explainable by the sound power, I suppose. How far away is your listening position? I wonder if Neumann consciously chose to optimize other parameters in lieu of the sound power given the KH120's intended nearfield application. If so, it's probably not the best speaker to choose for something like a living room application. But the 8030 has much less SPL headroom, so I guess it's a bit of a wash between the two...

 

[Pio2001]

The dips in the treble response are explainable by the sound power, I suppose.

Yes, if the sound power curve displayed in Klippel's documentation is correct. I've displayed it side to side with my measurement in this message : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/best-room-response.12715/page-9#post-393551

How far away is your listening position?

2,1 meters.
The speaker-to-listener RT60 is 0.45 s at 500 Hz.

 

[hyperplanar]

Yes, if the sound power curve displayed in Klippel's documentation is correct. I've displayed it side to side with my measurement in this message : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/best-room-response.12715/page-9#post-393551



2,1 meters.
The speaker-to-listener RT60 is 0.45 s at 500 Hz.

View attachment 65698

That graph overlay you put in that post is pretty damn conclusive, I'd say! The combination of the listening distance and the small room makes the sound power pretty important in your case.

 

[ernestcarl]

What was the treble setting on the back of the speaker ? Since I listen in a untreated room, I followed Neumann's user manual and set the treble trim to -1. It sounds correct to me. And after a long time with them, I find them to by a little shy on the treble side.
My hearing stops at 13.5 kHz.



Here too, my experience is the opposite. I have never enjoyed so much any kind of recordings than with the KH-120. From bootlegs recorded with a smartphone to hyper-compressed modern pop music, nothing sounds horrible. It's like we can hear perfectly what kind of recording it is, but it's just there and doesn't matter as far as music is concerned, while with other, much less balanced speakers, there are always some kind of recordings that sound horrible.
Amateur recordings made at home even have a kind of authenticity when listened to with the KH-120. It's like "oh listen ! Someone is playing music in our kitchen !
-No it's just a Youtube video playing in the speakers !"

Yep.

As always, why not EQ? One should not shy in EQ'ing both speakers as these already have enough headroom and are also low in distortion for most tasks...

I know I take liberties with EQ here and there to shape the sound to fit my own personal preferences. Saves you a lot of time and money, instead of cycling through a dozen speakers every year... unless that's your thing.

For example, I added the following to my speakers for a bit more 'body' and 'weight' to the overall sound:

For a few recordings, I disable it.

There is NO perfect speakers for ALL audio recordings that exist.

 

[q3cpma]

Yep.

As always, why not EQ? One should not shy in EQ'ing both speakers as these already have enough headroom and are also low in distortion for most tasks...

I know I take liberties with EQ here and there to shape the sound to fit my own personal preferences. Saves you a lot of time and money, instead of cycling through a dozen speakers every year... unless that's your thing.

For example, I added the following to my speakers for a bit more 'body' and 'weight' to the overall sound:

View attachment 65779

For a few recordings, I disable it.

There is NO perfect speakers for ALL audio recordings that exist.

EQ wouldn't work well for the KH120A, as the problem lies in the omnidirectional response.

 

[ernestcarl]

EQ wouldn't work well for the KH120A, as the problem lies in the omnidirectional response.

I have not read through the entire thread yet. But around which frequencies were you interested in 'fixing'? I'm using these about a meter to less than a meter. I EQ both treble and lower frequencies just fine, so directivity was not largely on my mind, at least in my case.

 

[q3cpma]

I have not read through the entire thread yet. But around which frequencies were you interested in 'fixing'? I'm using these about a meter to less than a meter. I EQ both treble and lower frequencies just fine, so directivity was not largely on my mind, at least in my case.

In nearfield application, on-axis is indeed what matters. I thought you meant fixing the 2-6 kHz dip that occurs when direct and diffuse sound mix.

 

[ernestcarl]

In nearfield application, on-axis is indeed what matters. I thought you meant fixing the 2-6 kHz dip that occurs when direct and diffuse sound mix.

Ah... I was quoting Pio who was quoting b1daly and was not concerned with sound power -- if that's what the concern was about. Different context

 

[alekksander]

Update: I received my pair of 8030C with their matching table stands, replacing the Yamaha HS7s. For now, my impressions are:
* Build quality is as good as I expected it to be.
* Incredible bass for the size, really. Well, more like incredible external volume compared to the woofer size.
* LOUD. I'm at the minimum input sensitivity and still had to reduce the level a lot on my Audient iD4.
* Top end does seem clearer, but that could be my imagination (e.g. seeing the metal tweeter through the grills).
* I realize that the HS7 is quite good, now that I have a "benchmark" to compare.

I migrated from HS8 yesterday (still have them) and my impressions are not very different.
Here are my observations:
• Can't find any negatives on a build quality (if i really had to point something… perhaps power button at the back is a bit loose). Everything is well paired, led brightness is pleasant day or night. White text in the back is printed clearly and consistently. Used materials shouldn't show any signs of use for long years.
• Too bassy for my taste. I had to set bass tilt -2dB right away (again, had to do the same on HS8 because now my speakers are in front of wall(so no wonder)). What's interesting even without -2dB setting bass didn't cover clarity of other frequencies. That wasn't so obvious with HS8.
• Very sensitive. Sensitivity knob range is too small. Playing on Objective Dac (2.10vrms if i recall) i have ALSA at 20/100 (-31,50dB) for ≈normal listening. Anything above 50/100 is what i consider too loud for regular listening. With vodka or ****** mastering it may vary. I must invest in better DAC that actually has volume control.
• On first impression it was obvious right away that the mids were given back to me, but top end was stolen in comparison. The sound is more balanced than HS8 – no doubt about that, but i really got used to exaggerated highs despite 8030C are noticeably cleaner. Whole frequency sounds less distorted and dynamics are better – almost too good.
• HS8 is a great speaker and might be enough for many, especially considering lows, and slightly over the top highs. I really liked their sound and will miss it, but wouldn't go back from Genelec 8030C.

Hopefully clumsy impressions of mine will help someone. The real performance can be and is measured.

 

[LTig]

• On first impression it was obvious right away that the mids were given back to me, but top end was stolen in comparison. The sound is more balanced than HS8 – no doubt about that, but i really got used to exaggerated highs despite 8030C are noticeably cleaner.

Just wait for break-in and the Gennies will be just fine - no, just kidding, you will adapt to the more neutral sound over time.

 

[q3cpma]

I migrated from HS8 yesterday (still have them) and my impressions are not very different.
Here are my observations:
• Can't find any negatives on a build quality (if i really had to point something… perhaps power button at the back is a bit loose). Everything is well paired, led brightness is pleasant day or night. White text in the back is printed clearly and consistently. Used materials shouldn't show any signs of use for long years.
• Too bassy for my taste. I had to set bass tilt -2dB right away (again, had to do the same on HS8 because now my speakers are in front of wall(so no wonder)). What's interesting even without -2dB setting bass didn't cover clarity of other frequencies. That wasn't so obvious with HS8.
• Very sensitive. Sensitivity knob range is too small. Playing on Objective Dac (2.10vrms if i recall) i have ALSA at 20/100 (-31,50dB) for ≈normal listening. Anything above 50/100 is what i consider too loud for regular listening. With vodka or ****** mastering it may vary. I must invest in better DAC that actually has volume control.
• On first impression it was obvious right away that the mids were given back to me, but top end was stolen in comparison. The sound is more balanced than HS8 – no doubt about that, but i really got used to exaggerated highs despite 8030C are noticeably cleaner. Whole frequency sounds less distorted and dynamics are better – almost too good.
• HS8 is a great speaker and might be enough for many, especially considering lows, and slightly over the top highs. I really liked their sound and will miss it, but wouldn't go back from Genelec 8030C.

Hopefully clumsy impressions of mine will help someone. The real performance can be and is measured.

Did you enable ISS? I didn't touch to power button since I set them up.

 

[alekksander]

Did you enable ISS? I didn't touch to power button since I set them up.

I enabled it right away, but didn't see it at work yet. How long does it take for the feature to enable itself? Since Tuesday i managed to get 30 minutes of silence and the LED was still on. My whole setup is connected to power stripe which is RF controlled, so when my computer is off i cut the power for everything connected to it.

 

[q3cpma]

I enabled it right away, but didn't see it at work yet. How long does it take for the feature to enable itself? Since Tuesday i managed to get 30 minutes of silence and the LED was still on. My whole setup is connected to power stripe which is RF controlled, so when my computer is off i cut the power for everything connected to it.

It does take some time. How much I don't know, but I'd say 45 min, on a guess.

 

[PingWine]

q3cpma If you had to pick between the little brothers: 8020D and KH 80 DSP, would your decision change or would you still go fo the genelec? (my listening distance is about 70cm so I really can't go for the 8030C)

 

[q3cpma]

q3cpma If you had to pick between the little brothers: 8020D and KH 80 DSP, would your decision change or would you still go fo the genelec? (my listening distance is about 70cm so I really can't go for the 8030C)

The KH80DSP is a lot flatter: ± 0.7 dB (100-10kHz) vs 8020D's 62 Hz - 20 kHz (± 2.5 dB). And you can use the (iOS exclusive) Neumann Control application for free, while Genelec's direct competitor - the 8320A - is pricier and requires the GLM kit (which should be better and work on mainstream OSes, though).
I still trust Genelec more, but the KH80DSP is better than the 8020D and even 8320A by a mile. It looks like the 8xx0 models are left behind in the pursuit of perfection through the Ones, sadly.

KH80DSP:

8020D:

8320A:

 

[PingWine]

The KH80DSP is a lot flatter: ± 0.7 dB (100-10kHz) vs 8020D's 62 Hz - 20 kHz (± 2.5 dB). And you can use the (iOS exclusive) Neumann Control application for free, while Genelec's direct competitor - the 8320A - is pricier and requires the GLM kit (which should be better and work on mainstream OSes, though).
I still trust Genelec more, but the KH80DSP is better than the 8020D and even 8320A by a mile. It looks like the 8xx0 models are left behind in the pursuit of perfection through the Ones, sadly.

KH80DSP:

8020D:

8320A:

God dammit you put me in a though situation now. I was so ready to buy the genelecs already but you got me thinking.

The dsp in the KH 80's is manual and I'll be doing it in REW anyways (and using Equalizer APO) so I'm not sure how big thing it really is for me.

Also you provided nice pictures and all but I don't really have the knowledge to make much sense of them. For example the vertical dispersion between KH 80's and 8320 seem so familiar and I don't even know what to look for xD.

Let me rephrase myself: What would you pick if the DSP isn't in the consideration. Are the neumanns really so much more flat that it makes an audible difference.

It's really hard for me to decide because
1. Genelecs have good subwoofer lineup. Neumann has just one "inexpensive" option. And before you say anything about the unimportance of matching sub and mains: I live in EU so there isn't really wide selection of brands known for their good subs.
2. I just like the looks of the genelecs better and trust them more (I'm biased as I'm finnish)

On the other hand
1. Neumanns have more output and don't distort as easily (if I haven't misunderstood)
2. Neumanns have lower crossover freq so the woofer isn't as strained and because it's lower the possible distortion isn't as audible.

 

[Ron Texas]

I think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

[PingWine]

I think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

?

 

[q3cpma]

God dammit you put me in a though situation now. I was so ready to buy the genelecs already but you got me thinking.

The dsp in the KH 80's is manual and I'll be doing it in REW anyways (and using Equalizer APO) so I'm not sure how big thing it really is for me.

Also you provided nice pictures and all but I don't really have the knowledge to make much sense of them. For example the vertical dispersion between KH 80's and 8320 seem so familiar and I don't even know what to look for xD.

Let me rephrase myself: What would you pick if the DSP isn't in the consideration. Are the neumanns really so much more flat that it makes an audible difference.

It's really hard for me to decide because
1. Genelecs have good subwoofer lineup. Neumann has just one "inexpensive" option. And before you say anything about the unimportance of matching sub and mains: I live in EU so there isn't really wide selection of brands known for their good subs.
2. I just like the looks of the genelecs better and trust them more (I'm biased as I'm finnish)

On the other hand
1. Neumanns have more output and don't distort as easily (if I haven't misunderstood)
2. Neumanns have lower crossover freq so the woofer isn't as strained and because it's lower the possible distortion isn't as audible.

I don't know how much audible it'll be, but the KH80 is better in every way, except warranty. I expect the relatively ragged on-axis of the 8020D to be audible compared to that perfection:

Everything considered, even with the lack of DSP control (I myself am using GNU/Linux, so no GLM nor Neumann app), the KH80DSP has all the advantages of internal DSP (inherent design and factory sample correction, phase correction and custom slopes) in addition to (or being the cause of) the lower distorsion and better vertical dispersion. And it even has some controls on the back, unlike the 8320/8330's which are GLM only.
About the subwoofer, since you don't want to use GLM, I'm pretty sure there will be no problem using the 7040/7050 with the Neumanns.

So, to your question: I'd take the KH80DSP without hesitation. And I also prefer the look and reliability of Genelec.