Neumann KH120A or Genelec 8030C?

[q3cpma]

Thanks, I've decided to get the 8030C, and perhaps get a calibration mic to use with Sonarworks to help get them suited to my room. The 8330's with the GLM kit was just too expensive for me, I know I probably won't get as good results as the GLM software, but i think it would be minimal gains for a lot of extra money.

Yeah, the price difference is a bit too much. The GLM set is especially expensive for what is probably some kind of dumb switch (everything being done by the DSP in the speakers or on the client side of the computer application) and a cheap but calibrated measurement mic. They even make you pay 85€ for a fucking volume button.
Man, I know Genelec's amongst the bests, but they certainly know it too.

 

[pozz]

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-mon-vs-neumann-kh-120a/

Heissmann did pretty high-resolution gated measurements of the KH120A (as well as his own DIY speakers). Seeing as he has enough data for horizontal and vertical polars, it should be enough to make a crude spinorama (but excludes diagonal angles) to compare with the Genelec.

Interesting that his measurements show the same dip in the low end of the KH120A as @amirm measured in the KH80DSP.

 

[Ilkless]

Interesting that his measurements show the same dip in the low end of the KH120A as @amirm measured in the KH80DSP.

Sound and Recording measurements of the KH120A show the same dip too. Meanwhile, Neumann's graphs show the barest hint of it. Makes me think it's the woofer soft limiter at work. It peaks at 60Hz because that's the tuning frequency of the reflex porting.

 

[Pio2001]

What loudspeakers did you have before?

Castle Trent
Dynaudio Gemini (with treble setting at +1.5 dB)
Boston A26
Kef R300

 

[maty]

At the same time I had some Boston A25 that I won on an UK eBay bid for around € 130 at home and my new KEF Q100. The Boston had much more serious and the Q100 hardly had in comparison, that is why I was about to return them. After many hours the bass appeared. My continuous improvements, spending very little, have made them sound a lot better than seven years ago and the A25 without mods.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/boston-acoustics-25-loudspeaker-measurements

When I sometimes listen to the A25 I notice a lot of difference. They are unmodified. At least I managed to keep him from buying a soundbar to the TV. However, the music it plays is of very low recording quality.

 

[Ilkless]

Frontal hemisphere power response as measured by Princeton 3D3A of the 8030A strongly agrees with Genelec's specs. Note that the horizontal scale is different, and it cuts off at 500Hz, but the bumps and dips are all at the right places and magnitudes. Looks like the 8030A, at least, has little resonances that are not taken care of. I wonder if the 8030C revision or the 8330A has addressed it.

 

[q3cpma]

Frontal hemisphere power response as measured by Princeton 3D3A of the 8030A strongly agrees with Genelec's specs. Note that the horizontal scale is different, and it cuts off at 500Hz, but the bumps and dips are all at the right places and magnitudes. Looks like the 8030A, at least, has little resonances that are not taken care of. I wonder if the 8030C revision or the 8330A has addressed it.

Where do you see that resonance? At 1k?

 

[Ilkless]

Where do you see that resonance? At 1k?

700Hz, 1.2kHz and 1.8kHz. As they appear on the power response and on-axis, they seem to be resonances.

 

[q3cpma]

700Hz, 1.2kHz and 1.8kHz. As they appear on the power response and on-axis, they seem to be resonances.

I don't know, the curve seems extra smoothed under 2k, but yeah, 1.2k is the only real offender to me. That 1.8k thing looks like a spike because there's a dip at 3k due to the crossover, I'd say.

 

[alekksander]

I'm in the same situation divided between Genelecs and Neumanns. Where i live there is no opportunity to listen to them before buying, so i will have to base on experiences of other people. Luckily folks on this forum (unlike some other) seem to have the right attitude and knowledge far beyond mine. Currently i have HS8, but I'm moving to smaller apartment soon and Yamahas are just to big… not to mention, that moving them in front of a wall made my experience with them unpleasant (despite „room control” switch). Before they stood almost in the middle of the room. Did any of You guys heard MDR–V6 headphones? Despite they are not being that flat, i like how they present high frequencies and amount of details in them. I can't complain about „separation” on these headphones too. Sorry for referring to headphones instead of other monitors, but before Yamahas i've had only krks 5" and later 8" (before facelift) which sounded bassy, i couldn't hear what's going on in the middle and some highs at all. How some people work on them remains a mystery to me. I read half of the internet and some opinions state that Genelecs are soft, other says they have exaggerated highs. Same contradictions about KH120A. They both seem excellent tools with top notch measurement results, so the important aspect for me would be the amount of details in top register. Any advice?

 

[q3cpma]

I'm in the same situation divided between Genelecs and Neumanns. Where i live there is no opportunity to listen to them before buying, so i will have to base on experiences of other people. Luckily folks on this forum (unlike some other) seem to have the right attitude and knowledge far beyond mine. Currently i have HS8, but I'm moving to smaller apartment soon and Yamahas are just to big… not to mention, that moving them in front of a wall made my experience with them unpleasant (despite „room control” switch). Before they stood almost in the middle of the room. Did any of You guys heard MDR–V6 headphones? Despite they are not being that flat, i like how they present high frequencies and amount of details in them. I can't complain about „separation” on these headphones too. Sorry for referring to headphones instead of other monitors, but before Yamahas i've had only krks 5" and later 8" (before facelift) which sounded bassy, i couldn't hear what's going on in the middle and some highs at all. How some people work on them remains a mystery to me. I read half of the internet and some opinions state that Genelecs are soft, other says they have exaggerated highs. Same contradictions about KH120A. They both seem excellent tools with top notch measurement results, so the important aspect for me would be the amount of details in top register. Any advice?

Depends on the distance/volume you need. The first page of the thread has all the info you need, but I'll add that the Neumann can go much louder without distorting (only useful in midfield, but here, the supposedly inferior sound power may matter) and the Genelec has a useful standby mode.
Both have flat frequency response, so I don't think you'll get your elevated highs without some equalization.

Basically, if you only consider these models in nearfield, make your choice based on features/look, they're as perfect as 5" woofer using speakers can get.

 

[jhaider]

The first page of the thread has all the info you need, but I'll add that the Neumann can go much louder without distorting (only useful in midfield,

That's interesting, because theoretically Genelec uses the "better" Tymphany (nee Peerless) midwoofer. Genelec's is a cast frame model in the "Peerless HDS" family, and Neumann's is a stamped frame model in the "Peerless "SDS/SLS" family.

 

[q3cpma]

That's interesting, because theoretically Genelec uses the "better" Tymphany (nee Peerless) midwoofer. Genelec's is a cast frame model in the "Peerless HDS" family, and Neumann's is a stamped frame model in the "Peerless "SDS/SLS" family.

Well it may be me misinterpreting specs, Neumann says "Sine wave output with a THD < 0.5 % at 1 m in half space: 95 dB SPL (>120 Hz)" and Genelec "Harmonic distortion at 85 dB SPL @ 1 m on axis: 50…100 Hz < 2%, >100 Hz < 0.5%". Even when removing 6 dB for the half space thing, Neumann claims 4 more dBs above 120 Hz. Seeing KH120A's SPL:THD:FR graph at 1% makes me think the difference between 100 and 120 Hz isn't 4 dB. Maybe some gain due to narrower directivity and the crossover being at 2 kHz instead of 3, courtesy of the bigger tweeter?

But you're right, it's probably an error from me or them, as there's no real reason for such a big difference.

By the way, where did you find this information about Genelec's usage of Tymphany?

 

[Purité Audio]

It’s actually on the Genelec forum, Genelec understandably don’t Publicise the fact although there Really is no reason because Tymphany make excellent drivers.
Keith

 

[Ilkless]

That's interesting, because theoretically Genelec uses the "better" Tymphany (nee Peerless) midwoofer. Genelec's is a cast frame model in the "Peerless HDS" family, and Neumann's is a stamped frame model in the "Peerless "SDS/SLS" family.

As the teardown you linked suggests, it's a custom SDS that appears to contain some upgrades while keeping the savings of a stamped basket.

 

[hyperplanar]

That's interesting, because theoretically Genelec uses the "better" Tymphany (nee Peerless) midwoofer. Genelec's is a cast frame model in the "Peerless HDS" family, and Neumann's is a stamped frame model in the "Peerless "SDS/SLS" family.

Not really, I would characterize Neumann’s woofer as an HDS, but with the stamped basket from the SDS family.

The original (Chinese) post implies he ran some tests on the woofer. The inductance rise with frequency was even lower than an off-the-shelf HDS. Also, Neumann’s THD graph suggests it can reproduce >=100 Hz at 100 dB SPL with <=1% THD, which includes the limitations of the 50W TDA7293 amplifier; not sure if a 5.25” SDS is capable of doing so... would be interested in learning more!

 

[Pio2001]

They both seem excellent tools with top notch measurement results, so the important aspect for me would be the amount of details in top register. Any advice?

Hi,
I've got the KH-120A, and I never got the impression to get al lot of details in the top register.
With the same on-axis response, the JBL 305P with custom equalization give the impression of having more detail in the top register.
I can't tell about Genelec. I've never listened to them.

 

[alekksander]

Thank You all for responding. I'm going to get a pair of Genelec 8030C next month. Is 8030B sounding any different than the new 8030C?

I realize that the HS7 is quite good, now that I have a "benchmark" to compare.

Would You elaborate?

The picture was taken when the Genelec representatives came to my home (!) and calibrated my setups - for free. Talk about great customer service!

I guess one have to be Finnish for that luxury?

By the way, here is an interesting fact… Genelec appears so confident of superiority of their producs, they don't mind showing Yamahas as an aides at official website. Take a look: https://www.genelec.com/audio-music-education. Photo took at AGH (University), Poland.

 

[hyperplanar]

Hi,
I've got the KH-120A, and I never got the impression to get al lot of details in the top register.
With the same on-axis response, the JBL 305P with custom equalization give the impression of having more detail in the top register.

Just speculating, given that the 305 and KH120’s on-axis FRs have been perfectly matched, there’s two factors off the top of my head that could lead to this impression:

• The recessed sound power of the KH120’s upper midrange. Less energy being radiated in this range into the room compared to the 305s could impart a bit of a “polite” and more relaxed presentation.
• A difference in the distortion levels of the two speakers’ tweeters. The KH120’s tweeter plays unusually cleanly for its class—the exact same tweeter is used in the KH420. The higher distortion of the 305’s tweeter could lead to the impression of a brighter, more detailed sound, even when its frequency response has been matched to the KH120’s.
  
  I am intimately familiar with both versions of the 305s. I’ve convinced 5 close friends to get a pair. There’s also a pair on my brother’s desk at home. Compared to the 305s, I don’t find the KH120 to lack detail in any way, but they certainly don’t try to push it in your face the way some other studio monitors do by designing in anywhere from a slight (1 dB) to moderate (~3 dB) rise in treble response. The only legitimate gripe IMO is the sound power. Great horizontal directivity though.

 

[q3cpma]

Thank You all for responding. I'm going to get a pair of Genelec 8030C next month. Is 8030B sounding any different than the new 8030C?

The only difference is the class AB amps (LM3886) and lack of switching PSU. Due to the amp, it has double the hiss, which could be a bit too much. Otherwise, nothing major, the 8030C can play a bit louder and has more linear ("58 Hz – 20 kHz (± 2.0 dB)" became "54 Hz – 20 kHz (± 2.0 dB)") and deeper (~52 to 47 Hz -6 dB point) bass.

Would You elaborate?

Well, I meant that the jump wasn't that extreme. In my personal Dali Zensor 1 -> Yamaha HS7 -> Genelec 8030C desktop speaker trip, the Dali -> Yamaha transition was more impressive; as always, good speakers aren't "impressive", they're just right.

By the way, here is an interesting fact… Genelec appears so confident of superiority of their producs, they don't mind showing Yamahas as an aides at official website. Take a look: https://www.genelec.com/audio-music-education. Photo took at AGH (University), Poland.

Quite fun, indeed. If it's the HS5, it could be to have some kind of NS10 response at hand.