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Neumann KH120A or Genelec 8030C?

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#21
From: https://kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

"Even with recordings with mono bass, having two subwoofers offers the benefits of less than half of the distortion, since each subwoofer needs to output only half the power. Woofer distortion more than halves every time you halve the power output. As you approach the limits, distortion climbs quickly. For the same distortion, you of course get twice the output with two subwoofers.

With two woofers, even if they are reproducing the same signal, their different positions will help even-out frequency response in a real room. Each will have somewhat different response in the room, and the net effects are smoother response."

I opted for two smaller "stereo subs" vs a single larger sub.

Genelec subs also remove the "full range" duty from the speaker.

I believe that the Neumann KH750 DSP as well as the KH80 DSP require an app and/or IOS device to do their party tricks. What if you don't have a device. What if the software isn't updated for newer OS's? How long did it take for Neumann to actually release the DSP software after it was promised? How long will it take Genelec to update GLM to work on Catalina.

Mechanical remedy vs software remedy
 
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#22
I believe that the Neumann KH750 DSP as well as the KH80 DSP require an app and/or IOS device to do their party tricks. What if you don't have a device. What if the software isn't updated for newer OS's? How long did it take for Neumann to actually release the DSP software after it was promised? How long will it take Genelec to update GLM to work on Catalina.

Mechanical remedy vs software remedy
Yes, you need an iPad for the Neumann. They broke their promise to release Android and Windows-versions and deserve criticism for that. But, to be fair: If you don´t have an iPad, you could borrow one, do the room eq and give it back. The units store the last setting. Also, if you don´t have an iPad and can´t borrow one, you can set the monitors to ignore all the app-related stuff und just use the switches. They won´t stop working or something. Value for money is still good without the iPad functionality, i think. But of course you have to decide for yourself.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #23
If listened in larger distances I would opt for the Genelec as if the sound power measurement of this Klippel NFS presentation https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/us..._3D_Sound_Field_using_Near_Field_Scanning.pdf (slide 41) is valid, its not as continuous as the one of the Genelec, making it sounding dark on higher distances.

View attachment 47553 View attachment 47554

(the red lines were added by me)

Personally I also prefer the looks of the 8030 :p
Thank for digging that graph, that dip is very strange when you see the examplary horizontal directivity, though. Maybe the reduced vertical disp. at the crossover point is the cause of this?

Do you prefer wider or narrower directivity? If I'm reading the SPL vs polar graphs right, i think the genelecs are a slightly wider directivity design.
Since these will be used as nearfield and sometimes "room filling" speakers, I guess the larger directivity is preferred. By the way, comparing these two types of graph is a massive pain.

Focal Shape 50 is great choice
Not really; see https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/focal-shape-65-studiomonitore-im-test/
I'll quote myself when talking about Dynaudio and Focal:
"For me, they're in the same tier as Focal: good traditional designs, homemade drivers and amps for some/most models but never trying to reach or overcome the state of the art like Neumann, Genelec or JBL do with their extensive R&D. They also don't have any "ultimate" selling point like Genelec's 3-way coaxials and diffraction-free aluminium enclosures, ME Geithain's full cardioid response or Neumann's ATC-like mid domes and sealed KH310."

tl;dr Focal is nice, but not on the same level of R&D and design as Neumann/Genelec

I purchased a new pair of Genelec 8030C's and a pair of 7040A's in 2019. I sold my two sets of Genelec M040's. I figured that since I could only use one set at a time I would consolidate and get Genelecs with stereo subs. The Neumann KH120 was a consideration, but Neumann's sub compliments were more expensive (and large) so stereo subs weren't an option here.

https://kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

I was tempted by all the the GLM talk and magic from Genelec, but the extra cost, wires and the software requirement made me go the simple Classic analog route. FYI, I don't think Genelec GLM currently works with OS Catalina.

Anyway, my 8030/7040 system sounds great. I haven't made much of an effort to "set up" the system with the dip switches, but it still sounds fantastic to me. Currently I just have the 8030's sitting on top of the 7040's.

Since upgrading is a constant, I think that these "smaller and less expensive" Genelec products will retain more of their original price than larger more expensive and/or high tech products (Genelec's included), plus they're very flexible in application and placement.

I like the 8030's very much. The build quality is very satisfying. The auto ON/OFF (with both speaker and sub) is a godsend and there's no startling ON/OFF pops like ATC. The design of the 7040 is also thoughtful and well executed. Easy to place and handle. I can perceive some self-noise from the tweeters if I put my ear up to them. No self-noise from any of the larger drivers.

Might get stands for the 8030's and I might upgrade to 7050 subs. The bass is very addictive. It gives power to music that I previously thought I knew. Very fun.

I vote for the 8030's
View attachment 47621
Thanks, it's nice to know that Genelec's powersave mode works as it should; which is rarely the case.
The 7040/7050 are indeed very nice and their very cool "laminar" port is a good idea.

Can you state the distance from your listening point?
At least 80cm and at most 2-3 meters.

I suggest you wait for Amir's measuremnts and informal listening tests as it's probably gonna be fun.
Well, I don't think I can go wrong with any of these two, even without amir's measurements. That's something I mentioned at the start of the speaker measurements quest: it'll lower the extremely high value of manufacturers providing data by themselves.
Personally, I'll never buy something without at least a frequency response graph.

If you are thinking about getting a subwoofer, too, i suggest to take a look at the Neumann KH 750 DSP. It is able to add DSP/EQ functionality not only to the KH 80 but also KH 120. For stereo the combination of KH 120 and KH 750 is a great offer i think.
Sorry, since I don't have (nor want) an iPad and don't even use Windows/MacOS, I must stay away from software configured speakers.

For a 1m distance I think also KH 80s are adequate

View attachment 47629
Since I'll be using them without a sub (at least at first), I think a 5" is the lowest limit I should accept. And as I said just higher, I'm not too keen on buying a whole DSP solution I can't use.

From: https://kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

"Even with recordings with mono bass, having two subwoofers offers the benefits of less than half of the distortion, since each subwoofer needs to output only half the power. Woofer distortion more than halves every time you halve the power output. As you approach the limits, distortion climbs quickly. For the same distortion, you of course get twice the output with two subwoofers.

With two woofers, even if they are reproducing the same signal, their different positions will help even-out frequency response in a real room. Each will have somewhat different response in the room, and the net effects are smoother response."

I opted for two smaller "stereo subs" vs a single larger sub.

Genelec subs also remove the "full range" duty from the speaker.

I believe that the Neumann KH750 DSP as well as the KH80 DSP require an app and/or IOS device to do their party tricks. What if you don't have a device. What if the software isn't updated for newer OS's? How long did it take for Neumann to actually release the DSP software after it was promised? How long will it take Genelec to update GLM to work on Catalina.

Mechanical remedy vs software remedy
Well, but isn't there tons of evidence to prove that we basically can't hear low bass distorsion?
 
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napilopez

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#24
By the way, comparing these two types of graph is a massive pain.
Most definitely. I tend to try to reference a few points and see how far the SPL is diminished to determine what's wider, i.e. how many dB down a speaker is at 45 and 75 degrees at say 4K, 8K and 10K. It's kind of arbitrary but the Genelec seems to be a bit wider throughout.
 

napilopez

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#27
IMO listen to more speakers instead of theory crafting and checking boxes. Focal is on par with Genelec for sound quality.
I haven't heard any Genelec stuff to compare but do tend to like Focal, although I appreciate their products more on the low end than the high end (the high end stuff is gorgeous but doesn't seem to measure that much better in the frequency/directivity department). They also don't use DSP to adjust frequency response even on their monitors so their on-axis tends to be a messier, but they have really wide dispersion which is often preferred. and relatively uncommon in the monito space.
 
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#28
Go for Genelec!
Neumann is Hi-Fi, Genelec is not [may I expect a shit-storm now?]
Well, IMHO it's not a matter of measurements since both of the subject speakers are just brilliant. Top of the art so to say.
Whatever your profession is, producer etc. both certainly satisfy highest demands.
It's a bit of a personal preference, which of the candiates will make it into your room.
 

stevenswall

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#30
3 Things: (My understanding)

1. Rounding the enclosure as much as possible prevents diffraction. Genelec wins here, and Neumann only pays attention to the front few inches.
2. Non-box shapes minimize direct internal reflections. Genelec wins here, as Neumann uses a box.
3. If both are thick enough aluminum, there shouldn't be any resonance from the cabinet. I'd call that a tie.
 

AnalogSteph

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#31
Re: 2), it's actually a somewhat trapezoidal box. My O110s are about 5 mm wider and slightly less high in the back, and I'd assume the KH120s would be much the same (or else they wouldn't be claiming "no standing wave resonances"). While I doubt this is as effective as the Genelec's shape, it may still bring down the Qs of resonances enough.
Re: 3), there are some rather hollow-sounding spots on the sides of my O110s' cabinets (which have had me wondering whether applying some bitumen mat might help... still pondering how to do so in a none-too-unsightly manner), but they may well have taken care of that in the KH120 redesign... it's an entirely different cabinet made from different materials and all.

Looks like they're still using much the same mid-woofer, which is a pretty amazing beast - they're literally getting 10 dB more level out of it than the JBL LSR305s manage with a driver the same size. It's not terribly much less than even the KH310 with its 8" job. Mind you, the woofer in the Genelec looks pretty similar...
The 1" tweeter is nothing to sneeze at either. It feels a better match here than in the KH80, where the mid-woofer did seem a bit outclassed.
 

thewas_

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#32
2. Non-box shapes minimize direct internal reflections. Genelec wins here, as Neumann uses a box.
It doesn't, important is just the dimensions are not the same and smaller than the radiated wavelengths, from internal modes point of view actually a sphere is the worst shape as you have one very dominant internal mode.
 

b1daly

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#35
I’ve had extensive time with Genelec 3040s (with the sub) and KH120A, and think they are both horrible sounding speakers. That said, I would choose the Genelec, as they are smoother sounding and have a very wide, even listening sweet spot. The KH120A were just too bright sounding, and very unforgiving on masters that had high excessive high frequency distortion. (Which is a lot of masters).

That‘s just me though:)
 

maty

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#36
To enjoy low quality recordings it is not highly recommended to use these speakers I think.
 

TimVG

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#37
They're both fine speakers. If they sound horrible to someone then there are different things going that have nothing to do with the speakers :)

FYI I have the 8030C in my living room as TV speakers. I use a couple of PEQ filters and a tiny of bit of a shelf up high to make them have a flat listening window. Build quality, as any Genelec I've seen, is top notch and everything works as expected. I've had some issues with the KH80 (I know, not a KH120) not wanting to go into standby mode, and these are things I'd rather not see in products of a certain price range.
 

LTig

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#38
It doesn't, important is just the dimensions are not the same and smaller than the radiated wavelengths, from internal modes point of view actually a sphere is the worst shape as you have one very dominant internal mode.
Yep, the measurements of the KH80 regarding resonances and directivity are close to perfect despite being a box design.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #39
It doesn't, important is just the dimensions are not the same and smaller than the radiated wavelengths, from internal modes point of view actually a sphere is the worst shape as you have one very dominant internal mode.
I was pretty sure too that box was the second worst. Well, vibration not coming from the woofer simply moving in its socket is not really important, anyway.
 
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q3cpma

q3cpma

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Thread Starter #40
Update: I received my pair of 8030C with their matching table stands, replacing the Yamaha HS7s. For now, my impressions are:
* Build quality is as good as I expected it to be.
* Incredible bass for the size, really. Well, more like incredible external volume compared to the woofer size.
* LOUD. I'm at the minimum input sensitivity and still had to reduce the level a lot on my Audient iD4.
* Top end does seem clearer, but that could be my imagination (e.g. seeing the metal tweeter through the grills).
* I realize that the HS7 is quite good, now that I have a "benchmark" to compare.

Next is setting up drc-fir/brutefir with my ECM8000; for now, I just have the -4 dB bass switch engaged for the back wall.
 
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