Neumann KH120 II

[enricoclaudio]

Nice. But still a bit complicated for sofa guy like me I need to wait for new KH310 II DSP Without SUB
By the way... How do you like your Parasound P6 PRE?

The Parasound P6 is a great preamp. It’s the one I use in my main living room system to listen to music in 2.2. Love the HT Bypass function and the analog bass management. I had a P5 before and the P6 is definitely a big upgrade.

 

[teashea]

Thank you very much for the analysis and it's very helpful. The overload was just at extream situation while I was playing drum music quite lound. I am also consider to replace 80s with 120IIs and continue to use one 750 if it's sufficient for the base for most of situations. If my current budget is no more than US$2k, what can benefit more, adding one 750, or replacing 80s with 120IIs? Appreciate any comments and advices.

I would say that purchasing KH 120 II's would be the best option.

 

[Spocko]

Thank you very much for the analysis and it's very helpful. The overload was just at extream situation while I was playing drum music quite lound. I am also consider to replace 80s with 120IIs and continue to use one 750 if it's sufficient for the base for most of situations. If my current budget is no more than US$2k, what can benefit more, adding one 750, or replacing 80s with 120IIs? Appreciate any comments and advices.

Since gear acquisition is an endless journey, think of it as a long game - get the 120II now, then add 750 later! There is no rush to get everything today; better still, you have improvements to look forward to as you layer your improvements in very significant ways and IMO, nothing is more significant than adding a pair of subwoofers.

 

[HQY]

would say that purchasing KH 120 II's would be the best option.

Thank you. I will move forward buying a pair of 120II and continue to use current stands which made for 80s.

 

[HQY]

Since gear acquisition is an endless journey, think of it as a long game - get the 120II now, then add 750 later! There is no rush to get everything today; better still, you have improvements to look forward to as you layer your improvements in very significant ways and IMO, nothing is more significant than adding a pair of subwoofers.

I totally agree. Thank you!

 

[Pearljam5000]

KH120II +a sub vs KH150
Which is better ?

 

[HQY]

KH120II +a sub vs KH150
Which is better ?

I'm a subwoofer guy and would prefer subwoofer which can handle the base with ease?

 

[AgentWet]

You can´t set EQ or crossover filters in the MA1 software. You can create your own target curve to a degree, but the software itself creates the filters from measurement + target.
The older Neumann.control iPad-app had that functionality (for the KH80 and KH750 only), but it hasn´t been updated since 2019.

I briefly read the MA1 instruction manual and watched one MA1 video form Neumann and there is a possibility to change the target curve with 8 band EQ and 2 shelves. They are saying that these shelves are fixed, but on one picture I saw 16000Hz and on another 11700Hz for the high shelf and so on... So maybe there is a chance to force the target curve with low shelf and set all parameters close to the ideal crossover for blending with non Neumann SUB. ??? What do you thing about it?

 

[mj30250]

I briefly read the MA1 instruction manual and watched one MA1 video form Neumann and there is a possibility to change the target curve with 8 band EQ and 2 shelves. They are saying that these shelves are fixed, but on one picture I saw 16000Hz and on another 11700Hz for the high shelf and so on... So maybe there is a chance to force the target curve with low shelf and set all parameters close to the ideal crossover for blending with non Neumann SUB. ??? What do you thing about it?

One of the issues with using a non-Neumann sub with MA 1 is that you can't set a HPF with it. You'd still need to come up with an external solution such as a miniDSP.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I briefly read the MA1 instruction manual and watched one MA1 video form Neumann and there is a possibility to change the target curve with 8 band EQ and 2 shelves. They are saying that these shelves are fixed, but on one picture I saw 16000Hz and on another 11700Hz for the high shelf and so on... So maybe there is a chance to force the target curve with low shelf and set all parameters close to the ideal crossover for blending with non Neumann SUB. ??? What do you thing about it?

I don´t know about the KH120II/150 - maybe they are different, but with my KH750 the shelves are not fixed. The bell filters are more variable though. You can set up to -24dB.
But yes, i tried it quick and dirty for you - i think you mean it like this:

Or this - and so on.

The values are not "correct" - i just typed in something that looked half way okayish.

Personally i would not do it this way though. It´s probably better to make the satellites flat and implement the crossover differently (e.g. through the subwoofer).
It is much more easy to integrate the subs if you follow @enricoclaudio ´s path with the MiniDSP and Dirac though.

 

[AgentWet]

One of the issues with using a non-Neumann sub with MA 1 is that you can't set a HPF with it. You'd still need to come up with an external solution such as a miniDSP.

Yes, you are right and it makes me crazy. I want to set HPF on SUB OUT and I can't. I want to set HPF at KH120/150 or any other DSP active monitor and I can't. Great times. We have all the tools, but we disable them to make customer upset.

 

[AgentWet]

I don´t know about the KH120II/150 - maybe they are different, but with my KH750 the shelves are not fixed. The bell filters are more variable though. You can set up to -24dB.
But yes, i tried it quick and dirty for you - i think you mean it like this:
View attachment 285186
Or this - and so on.
View attachment 285187

The values are not "correct" - i just typed in something that looked half way okayish.

Personally i would not do it this way though. It´s probably better to make the satellites flat and implement the crossover differently (e.g. through the subwoofer).
It is much more easy to integrate the subs if you follow @enricoclaudio ´s path with the MiniDSP and Dirac though.

Thanks a lot for your effort! And why you would not do it this way? Where you see main trouble? Just imagine that somebody like me wants some simple solution with minimum equipment. Just some DAC/PRE + some non Neumann SUB + some KH 1xx monitors and only something like UMIC1 for seeing results. No MA1, nothing... Just right placement, right treatment, right blending SUB + monitors and finally some small EQ for lowering biggest peaks only. I'm not looking for EQ based PRO studio solution for one small sweet spot. I want good and balanced sound in my room at wider area.

 

[Hexspa]

Check here:

2.1 Sub integration + REW

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

You set it up with a computer then you can unplug the computer and all settings are saved in the MiniDSP. You can save up to 4 different configurations inside the MiniDSP and switch between them with the IR remote. If you want to make changes to your saved settings, plug your laptop via USB, open the MiniDSP Device Console app and make the changes.

In my particular case, my Matrix Audio X-SABRE 3 DAC and RME Fireface UCX II Audio Interface go to the Benchmark HPA4 headphone amp / pre amp and from the Benchmark to the miniDSP FLEX TRS (Balanced connections) then in miniDSP FLEX I do HPF, LPF, EQ and time align speakers and subwoofer with Dirac Live (You can do it with REW only) and from miniDSP FLEX to Neumann KH150s and Rythmik Audio E22. The miniDSP FLEX has stereo balanced inputs and 4 independent balanced outs so you can run a pair of active monitors and a pair of subwoofers.

View attachment 285052

View attachment 285051

Wait, so you have KH 150 and don't use MA-1? Do you feel there any disadvantages to eschewing their proprietary option? I just used REW to create filters for my room and I'm curious what my next upgrade would look like.

 

[enricoclaudio]

Wait, so you have KH 150 and don't use MA-1? Do you feel there any disadvantages to eschewing their proprietary option? I just used REW to create filters for my room and I'm curious what my next upgrade would look like.

I have KH150s and I don’t use MA-1 mic/app simply because I can’t integrate a non Neumann subwoofer with my KH150s using MA-1 app. You have to use a MiniDSP FLEX TRS at minimum (if you want balanced interconnects) to get proper integration between Neumann KH150s and any third party subwoofer. You can also add Dirac Live to the FLEX and run Dirac Live to integrate your speakers and subwoofers, which is what I’m doing in my desk setup.

 

[Hexspa]

I have KH150s and I don’t use MA-1 mic/app simply because I can’t integrate a non Neumann subwoofer with my KH150s using MA-1 app. You have to use a MiniDSP FLEX TRS at minimum (if you want balanced interconnects) to get proper integration between Neumann KH150s and any third party subwoofer. You can also add Dirac Live to the FLEX and run Dirac Live to integrate your speakers and subwoofers, which is what I’m doing in my desk setup.

Agh. You're with Rythmik! That makes sense hah. I was just checking out your site and it looks like the E22 is no longer for sale. The F12 looks like it'd make a good match for a variety of monitors. Yeah, like I said, Room EQ Wizard seems fine for room correction DSP coupled with Equalizer APO Windows application and MConvolutionMB for ASIO filter application i.e. 'my computer'. Does DIRAC do something my current solution does not provide?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Thanks a lot for your effort! And why you would not do it this way? Where you see main trouble? Just imagine that somebody like me wants some simple solution with minimum equipment. Just some DAC/PRE + some non Neumann SUB + some KH 1xx monitors and only something like UMIC1 for seeing results. No MA1, nothing... Just right placement, right treatment, right blending SUB + monitors and finally some small EQ for lowering biggest peaks only. I'm not looking for EQ based PRO studio solution for one small sweet spot. I want good and balanced sound in my room at wider area.

To integrate a sub properly, not only the EQ/crossover has to be right, but also delay/phase. You need to invest either money or time to do it right.
If you want good bass in a wider area you probably need more subs.

It doesn't get easier/simpler (AFAIK) than either KH150 + MA1 with or without KH750 + interface with 48v phantom power or 3rd party sub + MiniDSP + Dirac + Umik.

 

[AgentWet]

To integrate a sub properly, not only the EQ/crossover has to be right, but also delay/phase. You need to invest either money or time to do it right.
If you want good bass in a wider area you probably need more subs.

It doesn't get easier/simpler (AFAIK) than either KH150 + MA1 with or without KH750 + interface with 48v phantom power or 3rd party sub + MiniDSP + Dirac + Umik.

If KH monitors would allow to set the crossover on them regardless of measurements with MA1 mic, all could be fine... If you can set phase and delay on SUB easily (some of them can do it through app from your phone on the fly) then it must be quite easy. At this time we need to use more expensive and complicated solutions.
Maybe for me will be better to stay with my Dynaudio Confidences and power amp and some small EQ at ADI2DAC and stop thinking about modern overcomplicated and overcomputed solutions.

 

[audafreak]

If KH monitors would allow to set the crossover on them regardless of measurements with MA1 mic, all could be fine... If you can set phase and delay on SUB easily (some of them can do it through app from your phone on the fly) then it must be quite easy. At this time we need to use more expensive and complicated solutions.
Maybe for me will be better to stay with my Dynaudio Confidences and power amp and some small EQ at ADI2DAC and stop thinking about modern overcomplicated and overcomputed solutions.

Your problem is that you want to buy great car but do not want it with a roof because you have black umbrella and that should be simple enough for you because you know, how to handle umbrella.
Believe us, complete car with roof is much better solution. Otherwise really better to stay with what you have.

Neumann DSP monitors and SW is a SYSTEM. Hard to combine it with some different system. All or nothing.

 

[AgentWet]

Your problem is that you want to buy great car but do not want it with a roof because you have black umbrella and that should be simple enough for you because you know, how to handle umbrella.
Believe us, complete car with roof is much better solution. Otherwise really better to stay with what you have.

Neumann DSP monitors and SW is a SYSTEM. Hard to combine it with some different system. All or nothing.

No. I want a simple car with standard tin roof, but todays solution is to take some umbrella which have to hold my roof...

I will wait for KH310 II DSP. There will be no need for a SUB.

 

[teashea]

KH120II +a sub vs KH150
Which is better ?

That is a great question. I am not sure there is a definitive answer. It may depend on one's need for low bass.

I have two pairs of KH 15-'s, a pair of KH 120's, a pair of KH120's with a KH 750 - and a pair of KH 120 II's being delivered today. So I may know more soon.