Neumann KH120 II

[teashea]

I'm comparing it to the Genelec's
Which sounds brighter and more detailed .
If you'll hear them side by side you'd understand

.... which is not a good thing.

 

[teashea]

All of these things that are supposedly lacking in the 120 II, like the enclosure material or lack of a new driver, cost money. For Neumann to want to invest the money into this development, it would need to have a purpose. The current tweeter design, as seen from their other speakers, is incredibly linear when paired with DSP and has no issues with output. What issue are they trying to solve for, aside from marketing it as new, by investing money into developing a new one? Having a more expensive enclosure might looks nice on paper or in photos, but in most cases having it be able to better survive falls and constant travel isn't a necessity.

All of this engineering work would cost them money, cost time, and make the resulting speakers cost more which would then make comparisons to other models worse for them. If doing so would vastly improve performance or fix an existing problem, then they would do that. But I've not seen a problem identified that would be solved for most users of these speakers, aside from aesthetics or not being new. Is there something they need to fix with these that we aren't aware of that you can point out?

Right. Neumann audio engineers are not going to change the tweeter just for the hell of it. It would certainly seem that the Neumann audio engineers did not just forget to change the tweeter. I trust their judgment and the measurements of the existing tweeter. After all, they did reshape the waveguide so obviously they paid attention to the issue.

 

[teashea]

I'm not bashing anything
I'm stating a fact that other companies update their tweeters , and after 10 years or more I would have expected Neumann to do the same with their new generation of monitors .
As simple as that .

But updating it is not necessarily an improvement. It is excellent as it is and there is no purpose in changing it just for the sake of changing it.

 

[teashea]

Well no
Again for the 100th time , I just said that over 10 years is a reasonable amount of time and pretty much the average time for a driver to be updated or replaced , and gave examples of other brands doing it .
It's funny I get all of the negativity for years (unjustifiably if I may) from many members here , and not even once did I say anything negative about anyone here , so my conscience is clear

And we keep repeating that it is not necessary. The number of years is entirely irrelavant. This issue is whether it sounds right. The Neumann audio engineers are not fools or incompetent as you seem to imply.

 

[teashea]

His points are this:
- He had KH120 that sounded dark in his ****** 3x3m shoebox room.
- Instead of investigating what was wrong in his case (room measurements etc) he sold the KH120.
- He heard Genelecs and liked them, but they are too expensive for him.

So his point is that he wants basically a cheaper Genelec and demands Neumann has to made this.
He repeats this point over and over, repeating false claims about what matters in speakers (that can't be ignored alltogether, because they may mislead others), shitting on state of the art products and their engineers, pissing on everyone who tries to be constructive and ignoring every advice and every explanation for YEARS.

Amen

 

[teashea]

So it took 10 years for one tweeter to outclass another one
And it's been over 10 years since Neuman released their tweeter so it makes sense, Becaue that's about the time it takes most companies to update / replace with a totally new tweeter
It's just odd to me that a brand new design and generation in general and everything has changed , woofer amps etc , and only the tweeter is the same .
Like I said , most companies update their tweeter
Focal on the new Solo6, Dynaudio with their Esotar etc ...

Who cares what other companies choose to do in this regard. So it shows that the other companies determined that their tweeters needed to be improved. That does not apply to Neumann, who designed a superior tweeter.

 

[teashea]

Yeah I don't know I see other people here holding to what they believe in ans get 0 negativity
Also I did learn a lot and never dismissed anyone's opinion
But I do have my own opinion( like everyone else)
Also my point is valid about drivers being updated every 10 years or so
Like I said , I will delete my own account if anyone shows me one bad word I said about anyone here

There is a difference between holding on to the truth and holding on to a false narrative.

 

[DSJR]

I'm not baiting here, but what things need to be improved in modern tweeter designs, the better ones rather better in many ways from those of thirty years ago (1990's was yesterday for me, so apologies).

Modern tweets seem to go lower than before - or is that waveguide technology enhancing existing designs? They seem to take at least as much power as they used to but I have no idea if the Klippel tests tghe tin can resonances in metallic tweeters over 20khz (most seemed to have 10dB peaks back then and I can think of one or two which had 15dB peaks at 25 - 30khz). The better ring types seem to avoid this I believe, but maybe they have other issues?

if Neumann and Genelec both use a proprietry tweeter type which they can easily obtain, with consistent reliable performance and repair or replace easily, wouldn't these aspects be just as importanlt to pro users as out and out performance? I mean, the levels these two makers seem to work at is on a far higher plane to many domestic speaker designs...

 

[3125b]

tin can resonances in metallic tweeters over 20khz (most seemed to have 10dB peaks back then and I can think of one or two which had 15dB peaks at 25 - 30khz)

With a full DSP speaker like these new Neumann it is irrelevant.

The respone is attenuated 40dB by maybe 23kHz.
The breakup of the Neumann tweeter is a bit low as can be seen from the S&R measurements of the KH310, but even there it's mostly an academic issue.
Not sure what frequency range the Klippel can accurately measure, S&R uses a big anechoic chamber and their measurements seem very accurate.

or is that waveguide technology enhancing existing designs?

Good question. These waveguiedes are approaching horns, so I guess there is some efficiency gain from that - I`m not a speaker designer though by any means ...
Looking at maximum output levels over frequency the tweeters of the Neumann designs don't struggle up to KH310, on the KH420 it can't quite keep up, but then again, music doen't have that much high frequency energy, so in actual use it is plenty even there.

and repair or replace easily

That's a really good point for sticking with one design for longer periods and over several models. Makes replacement parts much more reasonable to stock.

 

[MrSoul4470]

Just ordered a pair of KH120 II. I will compare them to my Genelec 8331.

Pearljam5000 says that Genelecs sound brighter. That is true. I had Neumanns before. Genelecs sound brighter and more detailed, but I'm not sure they sound more natural. Voices always sound a bit glass-like, holographic and multi-layered which to me is not very natural. Voices always lack body. It's like hearing a voice floating in front of you in the air. They are great speakers and just let you hear every detail, but sometimes it's just too much for pleasure listening.

We'll see. I will let you know.

 

[Ilkless]

Just ordered a pair of KH120 II. I will compare them to my Genelec 8331.

Pearljam5000 says that Genelecs sound brighter. That is true. I had Neumanns before. Genelecs sound brighter and more detailed, but I'm not sure they sound more natural. Voices always sound a bit glass-like, holographic and multi-layered which to me is not very natural. Voices always lack body. It's like hearing a voice floating in front of you in the air. They are great speakers and just let you hear every detail, but sometimes it's just too much for pleasure listening.

We'll see. I will let you know.

It's not very surprising judging by the spinoramas. A lot more 2-4kHz energy in Genelecs vs Neumanns off axis.

 

[test1223]

It's not very surprising judging by the spinoramas. A lot more 2-4kHz energy in Genelecs vs Neumanns off axis.

If you compare the 8331 with the KH120A the statement isn't accurate. At 2kHz the KH120A has a sound power dip but from 2.5kHz to 4.5kHz the sound power of the 8331 is a bit lower or at the same level (depending on your spl normalization). So the 8331 should sound more detailed and less sharp.

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

 

[teashea]

It's not very surprising judging by the spinoramas. A lot more 2-4kHz energy in Genelecs vs Neumanns off axis.

It will be interesting to see how they compare. I have two pair of KH120A's and am considering purchasing a pair of II's. We will be waiting for your evaluation//////////////////////

 

[Ilkless]

If you compare the 8331 with the KH120A the statement isn't accurate. At 2kHz the KH120A has a sound power dip but from 2.5kHz to 4.5kHz the sound power of the 8331 is a bit lower or at the same level (depending on your spl normalization). So the 8331 should sound more detailed and less sharp.

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

Shouldn't the comparison be KH80 v 8020 and KH120 vs 8030?

 

[test1223]

Shouldn't the comparison be KH80 v 8020 and KH120 vs 8030?

Oh I thought your reply was based on the 8331 vs. KH120A comparison.

But if you take the 8030C vs. KH120A comparison you get the same trend: no dip for the 8030 at 2kHz and about the same sound power from 2.5kHz to 4kHz. All Genelecs are voiced similar IMHO less sharp and more neutral.

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

 

[ernestcarl]

Oh I thought your reply was based on the 8331 vs. KH120A comparison.

But if you take the 8030C vs. KH120A comparison you get the same trend: no dip for the 8030 at 2kHz and about the same sound power from 2.5kHz to 4kHz. All Genelecs are voiced similar IMHO less sharp and more neutral.

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

I would only suggest to also switch the Neumann plot origin and version to NFS (Klippel) and not misc. for a more apples to apples comparison. I still do not see why the ongoing obsession of which is the "most neutral" monitors between these two... Yep, they sound a bit different... just audition either monitors side-by-side when possible before buying.

 

[teashea]

I would only suggest to also switch the Neumann plot origin and version to NFS (Klippel) and not misc. for a more apples to apples comparison. I still do not see why the ongoing obsession of which is the "most neutral" monitors between these two... Yep, they sound a bit different... just audition either monitors side-by-side when possible before buying.

Flat frequency response is important for studio monitors. Subjective impressions are often not accurate and can be misleading. Remember where you are --- Audio Science Review. Measurement is the fundamental basis for ASR

The primary function of Neumann monitors is for use as studio monitors. It is the most critical design endeavor for an audio engineer.

Amir knows what he is doing and his measurement methods are superior. If you don not understand why and how he does his measurements, I suggest you sepend a few hours studying his methods.

 

[teashea]

Oh I thought your reply was based on the 8331 vs. KH120A comparison.

But if you take the 8030C vs. KH120A comparison you get the same trend: no dip for the 8030 at 2kHz and about the same sound power from 2.5kHz to 4kHz. All Genelecs are voiced similar IMHO less sharp and more neutral.

Easily compare loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

Which is precisely the point. Your opinion is subjective and variable. The actual truth is the measurements correctly performed by Amir. That is the whole point of Audio Science Review and is why it is not called Subjective Variable Meaninless Review.

 

[ernestcarl]

Flat frequency response is important for studio monitors. Subjective impressions are often not accurate and can be misleading. Remember where you are --- Audio Science Review. Measurement is the fundamental basis for ASR

The primary function of Neumann monitors is for use as studio monitors. It is the most critical design endeavor for an audio engineer.

Amir knows what he is doing and his measurement methods are superior. If you don not understand why and how he does his measurements, I suggest you sepend a few hours studying his methods.

I think you are misunderstanding my point.

 

[teashea]

I think you are misunderstanding my point.

I can only understand the words that you write. You write "All Genelecs are voiced similar IMHO less sharp and more neutral." I am responding that your humble opinion is inferior to actual scientific measurements by Amir.

If you meant something other that what you wrote, correct what you wrote and tell us what you do mean.