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Neumann KH120 II

dfuller said:
He's a Neumann fanboy. Literally to the point he thinks that they can do no wrong.
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I rely on science and measurements - including Amir's measurements here on ASR. That is the basic of this forum - science.
 
teashea said:
I rely on science and measurements - including Amir's measurements here on ASR. That is the basic of this forum - science.
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If you think measurements are everything, you're missing the bigger picture. Take headphones, for example: I might listen to a pair that's technically "brighter" than the HD 800S, yet feel fatigue or even discomfort with the HD 800S, which measures as less bright. There's a lot of psychoacoustics involved—how we perceive sound can be very different from what the raw measurements suggest.

Then there's the head-related transfer function (HRTF), which means that what you hear might not match what is measured, due to your unique anatomy. Beyond that, when it comes to speakers, some are less sensitive to room acoustics and don’t demand perfect conditions to sound good.
 
Th
DEF said:
If you think measurements are everything, you're missing the bigger picture. Take headphones, for example: I might listen to a pair that's technically "brighter" than the HD 800S, yet feel fatigue or even discomfort with the HD 800S, which measures as less bright. There's a lot of psychoacoustics involved—how we perceive sound can be very different from what the raw measurements suggest.

Then there's the head-related transfer function (HRTF), which means that what you hear might not match what is measured, due to your unique anatomy. Beyond that, when it comes to speakers, some are less sensitive to room acoustics and don’t demand perfect conditions to sound good.
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This is Audio Science Review.
 
@bitels

I listened to the same file as in your video with my sealed speakers and subwoofers (also sealed), and couldn't hear that farting/rattling noise so I don't think that sound should be in the recording. Are you sure there isn't anything loose inside your speaker that may be causing the rattling, like a cable or something touching the bass driver?
 
Speaker's are brand new, did not open them, but no resonances when knocking.

I can not here it on:
Yamaha hs8
Eve sc207
Dt 770pro
JBL flip 4
Mixcube


I am 1000% positive, it is not in the recordings.
 
I would send them back and include the video as a proof that they're malfunctioning, this is not acceptable but this is a reason I prefer bass reflex port on the back if there's any, like in Genelecs 8xxx or Eve Audio and Yamaha
 
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@bitels the sound in the video you posted is of something rattling inside, probably a wire from amp to driver if I had to guess..That said, the 120 II is also pretty juiced - it has lower LFX than the HS8. It is entirely possible you're hitting its SPL limits. I can see the driver moving which means there's quite substantial excursion going on.
 
DEF said:
maybe don't mention it to your seller, sinus test tones can potentially destroy equipment if too loud
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I have frequency swept thousands of speakers with a sine wave. If done with common sense it is not harmful. It is the only way to test a speaker at all frequencies while testing for defects/faults. How do you think warranty service depots and manufacturers test? They do it with sine waves. Don't blast the tweeters super loud and don't drive the woofers to the stops... The member is using a 50 Hz YouTube video. He can obviously manage that. :D
 
dfuller said:
That said, the 120 II is also pretty juiced - it has lower LFX than the HS8.
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I'm pretty sure it hasn't, there's no Klippel measurements of HS8 that I know of, but here's a smaller HS7 and yet it starts to roll off 10Hz lower than KH120 with the exactly same slope. HS8 are pretty big with a woofer that's the same size as used in KH310. While the distortion figures of HS7 are not that good overall at moderate levels, the sub 50Hz distortion at 96dB is pretty remarkable so it's probably even better in HS8
 
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bitels said:
Speaker's are brand new, did not open them, but no resonances when knocking.

I can not here it on:
Yamaha hs8
Eve sc207
Dt 770pro
JBL flip 4
Mixcube


I am 1000% positive, it is not in the recordings.
Click to expand...

please let us know what neumann says, if you tell them whats going on with your speakers.
i really wonder whats causing the problem. i've only hat some farting/rattling issues with the ports of the small iloud mtms, when playing below 50hz, which i would say is acceptable for such a small speaker. i would guess your speakers maybe defectiv.
 
dfuller said:
@bitels the sound in the video you posted is of something rattling inside, probably a wire from amp to driver if I had to guess..That said, the 120 II is also pretty juiced - it has lower LFX than the HS8. It is entirely possible you're hitting its SPL limits. I can see the driver moving which means there's quite substantial excursion going on.
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I’m
jean-benoit said:
please let us know what neumann says, if you tell them whats going on with your speakers.
i really wonder whats causing the problem. i've only hat some farting/rattling issues with the ports of the small iloud mtms, when playing below 50hz, which i would say is acceptable for such a small speaker. i would guess your speakers maybe defectiv.
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What generation of mtm?
 
dfuller said:
@bitels the sound in the video you posted is of something rattling inside, probably a wire from amp to driver if I had to guess..That said, the 120 II is also pretty juiced - it has lower LFX than the HS8. It is entirely possible you're hitting its SPL limits. I can see the driver moving which means there's quite substantial excursion going on.
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Isn't this model protected with compression?

If both of them are clipping at in-spec SPL and the source is not to blame then I suspect something is clipping the signal before it gets to the finish line.

How is the Neumann connected to upstream gear? What are its settings? What's different between the connection to the Yamaha and the Neumann? Settings in the computer? Etc...
 
Dear Patryk,

thanks for providing the audiofiles for further analyses.

I got feedback from our productmanagement team and also from development department.

Speakers with ports generally have a strong flow in the channels at the tuning frequency. As the level increases, this will eventually become audible, no matter how much effort is put into the port geometry. In principle, a closed system with a larger driver has no port noise. If the ports are at the rear, as with the Yamaha monitor, they are not so audible from the front, but they have other disadvantages.
At some point, every loudspeaker comes to an end and parasitic effects become perceptible.

- Yamaha has a larger woofer with a larger cabinet volume and a different tuning frequency of the BR system
- BR port on Yamaha is at the rear, so port noise is less audible at the front

It is highly unlikely that the speakers are defective, as they are extensively checked for cabinet resonances during the final inspection. Probably simply a limitation of a compact 5.25” loudspeaker.
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Info from Neumann, I am not shure if they checked provided audio or not.


Is there a chance someone with KH 120 II will check on their pair.


Audio files:

kh 120 test - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com
 
bitels said:
Here is a link to video highlighting this problem.

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Everything seems normal. While Neumann's speakers might hypothetically show less distortion at the same 80dB level, it's important to consider compression and maximum SPL limitations. Distortion is mainly linked to the driver's linearity, provided the driver is operating well below its maximum SPL, whereas compression and maximum SPL are influenced by the driver's sensitivity and power handling capacity.

Basically Neumann woofers are smaller than HS8, everything looks normal to me.
 
holdingpants01 said:
I'm pretty sure it hasn't, there's no Klippel measurements of HS8 that I know of,
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There's ones taken by Dr. Anselm Goertz in the Sound & Recording review though. Anechoic chamber with sub-100 Hz spliced in.
Yamaha-HS8-Welligkeit.jpg

A few Hz lower than the KH120 II still.
holdingpants01 said:
While the distortion figures of HS7 are not that good overall at moderate levels, the sub 50Hz distortion at 96dB is pretty remarkable so it's probably even better in HS8
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Yamaha-HS8-SPL.jpg

Yamaha-HS6-Max-SPL.jpg

I think the woofer isn't the last word in electrical nonlinearity (no surprise), and low-midrange max SPL may be amplifier limited.
 
AnalogSteph said:
There's ones taken by Dr. Anselm Goertz in the Sound & Recording review though. Anechoic chamber with sub-100 Hz spliced in.
View attachment 399056
A few Hz lower than the KH120 II still.

View attachment 399064
View attachment 399065
I think the woofer isn't the last word in electrical nonlinearity (no surprise), and low-midrange max SPL may be amplifier limited.
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Sure, but to put things into perspective a pair of HS8 cost less than single KH120 II, while being much bigger. Neumann basically confirmed they work as intended and as I said I prefer back ported speakers for that exact reason. Now it's either returning them or getting a subwoofer
 
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