Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[staticV3]

is there any way to utilize digital connection in monitors and use subs from other manufacturers than Neumann?

WiiM Ultra supports Coax out to KH120 and RCA Sub out to SVS.

Edit:
Otherwise miniDSP SHD.

 

[LeonidKogan]

WiiM Ultra supports Coax out to KH120 and RCA Sub out to SVS.

I assume it only allows you to connect one sub as it doesn't have 2 sub outs but only 1 that's works as LFE?

@respice finem no but I'm not going to discuss that here. I might use a DAC as a last resort if I don't find any other digital solution but I'd rather not.

 

[staticV3]

I assume it only allows you to connect one sub as it doesn't have 2 sub outs but only 1 that's works as LFE?

See here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dips-peaks-in-rew-room-sim.63166/post-2331427

 

[LeonidKogan]

See here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dips-peaks-in-rew-room-sim.63166/post-2331427

Ok, that seems like the most reasonable solution cost-wise. Just to be sure, when I connect monitors via SPDIF and 2 subs with splitter to sub out, will I still be able to apply high pass filter to digital outs only and PEQ to 2 subs+mains globally? I will probably buy old SVS models without app and integrated PEQ, only using the one from WiiM.

 

[staticV3]

when I connect monitors via SPDIF and 2 subs with splitter to sub out, will I still be able to apply high pass filter to digital outs only and PEQ to 2 subs+mains globally?

Yes.

Meet WiiM Ultra - The Digital Hub for Your Music

To WiiM support.... This is my first WiiM product purchase and it has exceeded my expectations. Thank you for producing the Ultra. It is a great product and a great value. Thanks, Marvin

forum.wiimhome.com

 

[unpluggged]

I'd much prefer to get 2x SB1000 for less than 1x KH750.

Why do you need two subs for the KH 120 II? And why not get an integrated self-sufficient and supported first-party solution rather than trying to put together different pieces of equipment with no guarantee of a satisfactory final result? The benefits of getting a third-party sub (where you additionally have to figure out how to connect the speakers digitally and the subs via analog) and paying extra for an inferior third-party bass management and EQ solution are at the very least doubtful, IMO.

For instance, I ended up paying for the miniDSP + DL + shipping + duties just to have room calibratio for my HEDD speakers. If the KH 150 were available back then (in 2021) and I would be aware of the benefits of room EQ, I would gladly pay the premium for the KH 150. And I still have not yet achieved a satisfactory sub integration for that system. OTOH, with the MA 1 it's a "set it and forget it" experience regarding my desktop system with a pair of KH 120 and the KH 750 DSP.

 

[Pearljam5000]

KH120 II are almost half the price of the KH150
Is it still worth getting the KH150?

 

[LeonidKogan]

Why do you need two subs for the KH 120 II? And why not get an integrated self-sufficient and supported first-party solution rather than trying to put together different pieces of equipment with no guarantee of a satisfactory final result? The benefits of getting a third-party sub (where you additionally have to figure out how to connect the speakers digitally and the subs via analog) and paying extra for an inferior third-party bass management and EQ solution are at the very least doubtful, IMO.

For instance, I ended up paying for the miniDSP + DL + shipping + duties just to have room calibratio for my HEDD speakers. If the KH 150 were available back then (in 2021) and I would be aware of the benefits of room EQ, I would gladly pay the premium for the KH 150. And I still have not yet achieved a satisfactory sub integration for that system. OTOH, with the MA 1 it's a "set it and forget it" experience regarding my desktop system with a pair of KH 120 and the KH 750 DSP.

I know how severe pain in the ass setting a sub manually is, but the cost is deciding factor for me. I can get 2x used SB1000 for just a bit more than half of the KH750 new price (impossible to find used in my area). SVS subs are popular and pop out on the 2nd hand market all the time.

Why 2 subs?
1. I heard many opinions that it's usually difficult to achieve even response with just 1 sub. I've never heard anybody claim 2 subs are worse than 1.
2. I can afford 2x entry level SVS subs without stretching my wallet too much.

Another reason against KH750 is the added cost of MA-1 system - I already have UMIK-1 and WiiM Pro which I use for room eq. I would have to pay extra for another mic and for interface I would use just once for calibration.

The cost of KH750 + MA1 would be ~$2000 + some interface with at least 3 outs (used ~$150).
To be fair I'll put only 1 SVS in comparison:
Used SB1000 ($450) + ~$250 extra to exchange my WiiM Pro for Ultra.

That means having one entire day spent on calibration not taken off my life would cost me $1450, that's a steep price for convenience.

 

[unpluggged]

1. I heard many opinions that it's usually difficult to achieve even response with just 1 sub. I've never heard anybody claim 2 subs are worse than 1.

With two subs it's not any easier; you will need to place them carefully so as not to run into phase issues.

2. I can afford 2x entry level SVS subs without stretching my wallet too much.

Then you will have a difficult time integrating them. And may end up dissatisfied even after putting a lot of effort and time.

added cost of MA-1 system

The added cost is insignificant, and there is also a bundle that costs less than the sub and the MA 1 kit if bought separately.

I already have UMIK-1 and WiiM Pro which I use for room eq.

I see, but the UMIK-1 is not such a big investment, and the WiiM Pro's main purpose is not its PEQ, so you won't be losing too much. OTOH, room EQ built into the speakers, and phase-coherent one, is much more robust and versatile than using an external solution.

some interface with at least 3 outs (used ~$150)

Why do you need three outputs? You only need two.

Used SB1000 ($450) + ~$250 extra to exchange my WiiM Pro for Ultra

Yes, the price difference is significant, I agree. In the end, it's your decision and your money. But I strongly suggest saving up for the Neumann solution. The KH 120 II are fine on their own, especially in a space. The sub will bring your listening experience to the very top, if executed correctly

My case is a bit different: the KH 120 do not go as low as the KH 120 II, and they lack phase correction and room EQ, so the KH 750 DSP brings all these benefits to my system, and the difference is indeed very substantial. In case of KH 120 II, though, not so much.

 

[LeonidKogan]

Why do you need three outputs? You only need two.

That's what I read on Neumann's site, but the details as to how to connect the setup for measurements are not important for me as of now.

Yeah, the costs of MA-1, UMIK-1 or WiiM are insignificant, until they stack and become significant. Total extra cost would be, as I summed up, $1450, that's pretty much for me. I'm sure a complete Neumann alignment solution would make somewhat better results, but I'm positive I could achieve satisfactory effect with manual PEQ, high pass filter and 3rd party sub.


You might be right regarding two subs - I can play to some extent with positioning of one sub, but not two. Perhaps it would be wiser to start with one. I could buy 1 SVS and try to integrate it without any extra expenses, as I have 2 dacs lying around and all the necessary cables. Were the results fine, I could then make a decision if I want to upgrade to WiiM Ultra and go digital.

I would not hesitate if I could find KH750 used but it might never happen in Poland.

 

[ddsn]

With two subs it's not any easier; you will need to place them carefully so as not to run into phase issues.


Then you will have a difficult time integrating them. And may end up dissatisfied even after putting a lot of effort and time.


The added cost is insignificant, and there is also a bundle that costs less than the sub and the MA 1 kit if bought separately.


I see, but the UMIK-1 is not such a big investment, and the WiiM Pro's main purpose is not its PEQ, so you won't be losing too much. OTOH, room EQ built into the speakers, and phase-coherent one, is much more robust and versatile than using an external solution.


Why do you need three outputs? You only need two.


Yes, the price difference is significant, I agree. In the end, it's your decision and your money. But I strongly suggest saving up for the Neumann solution. The KH 120 II are fine on their own, especially in a space. The sub will bring your listening experience to the very top, if executed correctly

My case is a bit different: the KH 120 do not go as low as the KH 120 II, and they lack phase correction and room EQ, so the KH 750 DSP brings all these benefits to my system, and the difference is indeed very substantial. In case of KH 120 II, though, not so much.

Hello, may I ask if the software part of MA1 also needs to be purchased for use? In my area, microphones are sold, but the software part is not available.

 

[solawind]

My left monitor has started producing buzzing and static noise after a week of use, it is very quiet but definitely audible from 1.5m away. just like a few reports earlier in this thread. Right one is dead silent. i have removed LAN, SPDIF in, and every other connection except power, but it didn't change anything, so it is definitely not signal amplification noise. i also tried to change the input amplification to the lowest value using ma1 software and switching all backplate switches, but it did not change anything. Power cycling didn't help either. Both monitors are connected to the same portable power strip. Somehow, I decided to swap the left and right monitors so I could check if there was any electromagnetic influence that could cause the noise in the left monitor. And after swapping them to exactly the same positions, there has been no noise so far for two days. I also performed a hard reset on the noisy speaker and replaced the power cable. I have seen a few ppl posts about opening support tickets about this issue, Did neumann reply to anything? i still not sure what exaclty helped me and whether the problem is gone or will appear again later. It looks like just swapping monitors helps but it makes no sense.

 

[solawind]

Hello, may I ask if the software part of MA1 also needs to be purchased for use? In my area, microphones are sold, but the software part is not available.

you can download ma1 software for free on the neumann site. afaik only advanced features like multichannel calibration are licensed

 

[LeonidKogan]

I'm thinking about buying used Minidsp Flex with Dirac license to make better room correction than WiiM PEQ allows, then get 1 or 2 subs to integrate.

Flex comes with RCA outputs, while KH120 II has only XLR input. I would like to use my 5m XLR cables I just bought recently and I wonder if male XLR-female RCA adapter (connected to the monitors) would work in this scenario. Flex to SVS would be connected via regular RCA cable. AFAIK, RCA and XLR have different output voltage - would that be a problem to set identical volume on both, or it doesn't matter what adapters you use on the way if all outs on Flex are RCA?

 

[unpluggged]

I'm thinking about buying used Minidsp Flex with Dirac license to make better room correction than WiiM PEQ allows, then get 1 or 2 subs to integrate.

Flex comes with RCA outputs, while KH120 II has only XLR input.

The KH 120 II already have great room EQ built-in. Why the inferior third-party solution?

And even then, why use the analog version of the Flex if your speakers have digital inputs?

 

[kyuu]

The KH 120 II already have great room EQ built-in. Why the inferior third-party solution?

Presumably because it requires Neumann's $300 microphone? Though if you're going to purchase a Dirac license and a UMIK-1, one might consider spending that money on the Neumann microphone instead.

 

[unpluggged]

Presumably because it requires Neumann's $300 microphone?

The Flex costs $495 (or $570 if you go for the balanced version, which is not needed, though, as the Digital suits it better) + shipping + duties. The DL license costs another $199. And it still requires a calibrated microphone, and the cheapest one costs another $79 + shipping + duties. So I am sincerely puzzled as to the motives of our fellow @LeonidKogan.

 

[jhaider]

The KH 120 II already have great room EQ built-in. Why the inferior third-party solution?

I use Dirac Live Bass Control with my KH 120 IIs. There are two reasons, a dominant one and a secondary one.

Dominant: sit/stand desk. Modal response is very different between the two. The JBL SDP-55 I use has two different presets based off of different measurements, and it's reasonably easy to switch. Can't do that with MA-1.

Secondary: use whatever subs I want to. KH 750 seems like a great device based on measurements by @Nuyes, but if you already have stuff...

The ironies are (a) I used the Neumann MA-1 mic (which is excellent for the purpose) for my Dirac cal - which reminds me I should list most of my iSEMcon EMX-7150 mics for sale...); and (b) I forgot to click the MA-1 cal off so technically it's a double-correction. Fortunately, Dirac's target curve confirms and lays on top of the MA-1 correction in the MF and HF.

 

[unpluggged]

I use Dirac Live Bass Control

I understand your case, but the miniDSP Flex does not have it. It has only the Dirac Live stereo correction, and is a bit limited at it. You are supposed to integrate the sub on your own prior to calibrating the whole system with DL (I have not yet managed to do this satisfactorily with my HEDD speakers and the KH 750 DSP in external bass management mode, so have given up for now. Not that I miss too much of low end in my room, though).

The MA 1 and the Neumann's DSP can achieve better calibration results (and, what is important, effortless sub integration). Also, @LeonidKogan has yet to acquire a sub (and still, I doubt the KH 750 DSP bundled with the MA 1 is so much more expensive than an SVS sub + miniDSP Flex + DL license + UMIK-1 + labor to set all this stuff up correctly). Hence the confusion on my part.

 

[solawind]

The JBL SDP-55 I use has two different presets based off of different measurements, and it's reasonably easy to switch. Can't do that with MA-1.

i thought you could have two (and more) alignments in the MA1 software, are you sure you cant? there is a drop down box to select current alignment.