Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[HQY]

I recently upgraded fm and the wake-up issue seems gone. Current ma1 ver 2.3.2.1880.

 

[mechkbfan]

Yeah, I'm on 2.3.2.2018 when upgraded firmware

My concern for now it's just an indication of faulty hardware, and a more permanent failure will happen the moment it's out of warranty.

 

[somebodyelse]

All apps are Windows/Mac. Would have been nice to see some Linux apps

https://github.com/schwinn/khtool is the closest I know of. It lets you set and get properties via CLI. You need to use something like REW to make room measurements and find filter settings to use.

 

[vamp]

One of the two speakers actually turns off instead of going into standby mode. I need to turn the switch off at the back and on again to get it to play music again.

return it. It's broken

 

[Pearljam5000]

I wish someone from Neumann could comment about these issues

 

[Purplepurplepurplepurple]

Hi guys,

I am about to purchase these + KH750 and MA1 mic and I’m half way through reading this thread, thanks so much for the thoughts and great info and original tests conducted by Amir
I have searched for all relevant terms but had no luck so thought I’d ask as I’m really struggling to establish how I will connect my interface (Metric Halo ULN-8 which uses digital out on AES DB25/DSub) to this system of 2x120ii’s + KH750 for use with a full range MA1 calibration.

I want to make all connections digitally, to avoid unnecessary AD/DA conversion, and so analog connectivity isn’t suitable for me.

As pictured in the attachment to this post from the KH750 manual, when wanting to make all connections digital; it seems to suggest (but tbh I find this diagram a little unclear) that you go digitally from interface (AES on DB25/D-Sub, into SPDIF on the first KH120ii and then from the first KH120ii to the second KH120ii I would use a standard SPDIF RCA cable, and then finally I would go from SPDIF out of the KH120ii into the AES on BNC on the KH750

Firstly to do this way, I would need some way of level and impedance matching from AES on DB25 (110ohm) to the 75ohm SPDIF input on the KH120ii

And then I would also need a way of making sure the final connection is also correct:

KH120ii SPDIF out to the KH750’s AES BNC input (but my understanding this shouldn’t be difficult as both have 75ohm impedance and no level matching issues).

( This has taken a long time to research as you can probably tell!)

Now I am aware that it is possible to go into the subwoofer first, which in someways is a lot easier as my interface has AES on DB25 - from there Neutrik level and impedance matching adaptor (Neutrik NADIT BNC-F - which coverts the DB25 AES

• Input: 3-Pin XLR jack 110 Ohm

To:

• Output: Female BNC 75 Ohm

From there you take a 75 Ohm BNC cable from the adaptor into the KH750 subwoofers’s AES IN (on BNC) and then from there I would take a BNC to RCA cable from the KH750 AES OUT to KH120ii SPDIF IN and then finally a RCA cable from the first 120ii to the second - by connecting SPDIF out to SPDIF in on the other speaker.

This method I’ve been assured will work by my dealer. However the reason I’m wanting to explore how I can go *into the KH120ii’s first* from my interface and the subwoofer last; is because firstly this is what the KH750 manual *seems* to suggest in the attached diagram. And secondly Neumann told me the following when enquiring as to which is the best way for a fully digital signal path of connections

‘the order of the digital cabling is variable. We recommend the sequence as in the manual, as it works most reliably from a latency point of view.’

And finally I had asked which guaranteed the lowest latency (my studio is for tracking the majority of the time and is heavily complex - so reducing 1ms or even less, just by changing the way this system is connected is absolutely a question I want to make sure I answer correctly to ensure I have the lowest possible latency (which I know has to be fully digital to avoid additional latency from unnecessary AD/DA in the speakers themselves)

So the language of ‘most reliably from a latency point of view’ whilst I find somewhat confusing and have extrapolated that it means that the manual diagram is the lowest latency (mentioned here as ‘most reliable’ by Neumann).

So with this in mind - I’m back querying how best to ensure I have the exact cabling needed to go:

INTERFACE AES DB25 OUT to KH120ii SPDIF IN
Then
KH120ii SPDIF out to SPDIF in of other KH120ii
Then
KH120ii SPDIF out to KH750 AES BNC IN

To further complicate things - the KH120ii manual seems to contradict the written advice and pictured advice from manual for fully digital connectivity by saying the following:

‘If the signal source is based on internal digital signal processing, it is recommended that you choose a digital connection between the signal source and the loudspeaker . This eliminates the need for additional signal conversion from digital to analog in the source and from analog to digital in the loudspeaker . This also applies if you are connecting to an upstream DSP subwoofer (e .g . KH 750 DSP) . This should be connected to the loudspeakers via its digital output’

So hopefully it’s clear why I’m not finding this exactly crystal clear as to which approach to take to ensure the lowest possible latency, and correct cabling/impedance+level matching.

Thanks so much for reading this, and thank you very much in advance for any suggestions or help here in making me finally be able to purchase knowing I’ll have everything needed and planned correctly.

 

[somebodyelse]

From the KH120ii manual:

When using a daisy chain connection as shown here, the signal from the second loudspeaker is not delayed relative to the first loudspeaker

I didn't find an equivalent statement in the KH750 manual, but both seem to agree in showing the s/pdif daisy chain going to speakers then sub.

 

[Joaquinín]

From the KH120ii manual:

I didn't find an equivalent statement in the KH750 manual, but both seem to agree in showing the s/pdif daisy chain going to speakers then sub.

I suspect it doesn't matter much, as the clock in charge is the one in the interface, not those in the speakers, right? I think that sending the right 48khz signal to the speakers can help: It frees them from the load of having to resample the incoming data. If my memory doesn't fail, Dynaudio says about their "Core" series (which also have digital inputs) that they avoided any resampling being done in the speakers in order to avoid synchronicity issues.

 

[Purplepurplepurplepurple]

I suspect it doesn't matter much, as the clock in charge is the one in the interface, not those in the speakers, right? I think that sending the right 48khz signal to the speakers can help: It frees them from the load of having to resample the incoming data. If my memory doesn't fail, Dynaudio says about their "Core" series (which also have digital inputs) that they avoided any resampling being done in the speakers in order to avoid synchronicity issues.

Thanks for your reply, I’ll be connecting everything digitally to avoid any unnecessary conversion, including making sure audio is at 48 before arriving to the speakers.

And yes I saw that the manual states that it doesn’t matter about daisy chaining the speakers.

However my query was regarding whether it makes a difference, in latency terms, whether I connect from interface into subwoofer first and then speakers, or speakers first and then subwoofer.

Neumann seemed to suggest it does, and they suggest going into the speakers first, for ‘more reliable’ latency.

However the manual for the KH120ii contradicts this so I’m confused as to best approach.

 

[Drew456]

@Markus @ Neumann posted in the KH150 thread that both methods of connection were fine but "going into the monitors first reduces the overall system delay because of the latency free digital out of the monitors."

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

Hi, everyone! I have Adam A7X (home studio 20 sq m) and want to replace it for Adam A7V. But found out about Neuman 150. Many people like it and I'm thinking of buyinf it instead of Adam A7V. But I can't listed to them and I didn't founf the info about the soundstage. I like Adam because of...

audiosciencereview.com

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

Hi, everyone! I have Adam A7X (home studio 20 sq m) and want to replace it for Adam A7V. But found out about Neuman 150. Many people like it and I'm thinking of buyinf it instead of Adam A7V. But I can't listed to them and I didn't founf the info about the soundstage. I like Adam because of...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Purplepurplepurplepurple]

Brilliant, thanks so much. Just the info I’ve been looking for @hip_adductor t

@Markus @ Neumann posted in the KH150 thread that both methods of connection are fine but 'Going into the monitors first reduces the overall system delay because of the latency free digital out of the monitors'.

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

Hi, everyone! I have Adam A7X (home studio 20 sq m) and want to replace it for Adam A7V. But found out about Neuman 150. Many people like it and I'm thinking of buyinf it instead of Adam A7V. But I can't listed to them and I didn't founf the info about the soundstage. I like Adam because of...

audiosciencereview.com

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

Hi, everyone! I have Adam A7X (home studio 20 sq m) and want to replace it for Adam A7V. But found out about Neuman 150. Many people like it and I'm thinking of buyinf it instead of Adam A7V. But I can't listed to them and I didn't founf the info about the soundstage. I like Adam because of...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[mechkbfan]

return it. It's broken

Sent back today. Probably a few weeks until returned. I'm using my previous Tuk Kanto's until then

Should have blind tested them side by side because I immediately miss the KH120's

 

[Purplepurplepurplepurple]

Can anyone help me understand this image - is it suggesting to position less than 0.8m from the back wall OR *only* over 1.25m from the back wall?

Thanks

 

[Purplepurplepurplepurple]

And is this image saying that my ear needs to be vertically aligned with the top of the driver as labelled here as ‘0 degrees’?

 

[goat76]

View attachment 388995

Can anyone help me understand this image - is it suggesting to position less than 0.8m from the back wall OR *only* over 1.25m from the back wall?

Thanks

Yes, but it's not a hard-set rule as it will also depend on the wall material. You should position the speakers where you find them to sound the best to you.

 

[Purplepurplepurplepurple]

Yes, but it's not a hard-set rule as it will also depend on the wall material. You should position the speakers where you find them to sound the best to you.

Thanks for your reply, but which of the two options are you saying yes to?

Less than 0.8m from the wall will be fine, but not quite as easy in my room, and using the space I have available to move them over 1.25m from the back wall

 

[goat76]

View attachment 388999
And is this image saying that my ear needs to be vertically aligned with the top of the driver as labelled here as ‘0 degrees’?

It means the loudspeaker's acoustic center is located right between the drivers at the vertical plane and right in front of the speaker. The flattest response of the speaker will be had if your ears are at the same height as the acoustic center and the speakers should be toed in pointing towards the listening sweet spot.

The vertical height is the most important one to follow, but the amount of toe-in can be used to fine-trim the high-frequency response and the phantom center image.

 

[goat76]

Thanks for your reply, but which of the two options are you saying yes to?

Less than 0.8m from the wall will be fine, but not quite as easy in my room, and using the space I have available to move them over 1.25m from the back wall

I don't think you should put too much weight on what is written in the manual and instead listen to the speakers at different distances to the back wall. Change the distance with fairly large steps to begin with and listen where the bass response sounds the best, then move the speakers with smaller steps to fine-trim the position until you are satisfied.

It will be a compromise which ever position you end up with.

 

[Ellebob]

The highlighted portion of tha recommendation for positioning of the loudspeaker comes from speaker boundry intereference response (SBIR) also know as Allison effect named afer the man who first documented it. I think in the 60's.

Sound waves radiate in all directions when it comes out of the speaker. At a certain frequency the wave will reflect off the back wall and be in the oppsoite phase as the same sound going forward. When the in phase wave combines with the out of phase wave there is a cacellation of that frequency, causing a dip in the frequency response. Depending how far the speaker is from the wall behind it will determine at what frequency it occurs. The further away from the wall the lower frequency it will happen. An 80hz dip will happen about 3.5ft from the wall. If using a sub you bring the speakers out further than 3.5ft and set the crossover to 80hz and you will no longer have the dip. Another solution is to place the speaker closer to the wall and put some abosrption on the wall. You can do this in general but the further the spealer is from the wall, the thicker the absorption is required.

Link to Genelec's montior placement, scroll down to wall reflections and cancellations. They have graphics and can explain better than me.

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

 

[apx]

got my pair today and had to moan a bit about qc. on one of them you can't put the output level switch to 94 at the back because the switch have not enough clearance between itself and maybe the small tissue around. you can move it with enough force, but it will flip back up to 100. meh.

in addition ma 1 was looping forever in the "restart speaker" state after updating the firmware. had to restart the software after a few minutes.
sennheiser and their "professional" software; the ride never ends
also was disappointed that ma 1 has no manual control over the dsp without buying the microphone, and the old control app (which can access the dsp) will not discover the speakers.

the sound is without doubt flatter than anything a flatearther could dream about and has an excellent response, but oh boy everything else...