Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[IamJF]

When used in an Atmos setup and crossed at about 80Hz it seems like KH120ii, KH150 and KH310 are limited to the same max level between 100-200Hz. Didn't expect that.

Nevertheless THD over frequency at level X is the real usecase and shows how the speaker behaves at level X. KH310 will have less midrange distortion. for e.g. That's alwas one of the first things I check with a speaker.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I scanned the rest of the max SPL measurements by S&R for the Neumann series:

View attachment 305786

Overall, SPL at a specific level of THD seems more interesting than the usual absolute/relative THD level measurements. @amirm Something to consider in your reviews may be to plot SPL vs. THD at 0.1%, 1%, 3%, 10% (for example), all of which can plotted on a single graph and compared speaker to speaker more simply.

This is a really helpful graph, thank you!
Is it reasonable to add the KH750 to this graph, too? Questions about it are asked frequently. Or would this be misleading, because a sub typically is placed to a wall and on the ground instead of free standing?

 

[Pearljam5000]

I found one big surprise in the review - how little ground KH 120 II cedes to KH 150 in bass output.

I'm not going to post the graphs - anyone interested can buy an "einzelheft" (single issue) from S&R's website for about 8.50 USD as I did, or wait until the measurements are on the website.

But to briefly summarize: frustratingly, the frequency windows for both reviews are different, but KH 120 II seems to only be about 1dB in capability off from KH 150. (F3 on KH 150 is 6 Hz lower.) That also puts KH 120 II in the same bass output ballpark of JBL 705P in terms of output, with a similar F3. I did not expect that at all. Very, very impressive, Neumann!

So basically the KH150 is not worth the extra $$$ vs KH120 II?

 

[IamJF]

Used with a Subwoofer - questionable. Used fullrange - it's an upgrade. Worth the pretty steep price ... depends on your use case.
(Price was significant lower at a summer sale in Europe. Possible we see some movement in the future?)

 

[Curvature]

This is a really helpful graph, thank you!
Is it reasonable to add the KH750 to this graph, too? Questions about it are asked frequently. Or would this be misleading, because a sub typically is placed to a wall and on the ground instead of free standing?

I think if we were to take your objection seriously, it would apply to the rest of the speakers too. So I don't believe we should, since the measurement conditions are the same for each. AFAIK, S&R measurements are done in a hemianechoic room, so a 2pi space (with ground).

I added Neumann measurements for the 750, 810 and 870. Not sure about their conditions but they seem to be similarly reliable since the KH750 measurements line up decently, Neumann's even being somewhat more conservative.

So basically the KH150 is not worth the extra $$$ vs KH120 II?

The difference between all of these speakers, and all others, outside of output capability, is in directivity. The 3D radiation pattern is different for each.

 

[teashea]

Used with a Subwoofer - questionable. Used fullrange - it's an upgrade. Worth the pretty steep price ... depends on your use case.
(Price was significant lower at a summer sale in Europe. Possible we see some movement in the future?)

Subwoofer KH 750?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I think if we were to take your objection seriously, it would apply to the rest of the speakers too. So I don't believe we should, since the measurement conditions are the same for each. AFAIK, S&R measurements are done in a hemianechoic room, so a 2pi space (with ground).

I added Neumann measurements for the 750, 810 and 870. Not sure about their conditions but they seem to be similarly reliable since the KH750 measurements line up decently, Neumann's even being somewhat more conservative.

View attachment 305986


The difference between all of these speakers, and all others, outside of output capability, is in directivity. The 3D radiation pattern is different for each.

Thanks. The S&R review of the KH750 at least uses a 4pi space.
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/neumann-kh-750-dsp-subwoofer-mit-dsp-system-im-test/

 

[DearSX]

That is a great comparison of some of the measurements, the KH150 is doing great with bass distortion and distortion in general at moderate volumes. The KH420 is looking great too! I think 6hz of added bass extension is very useful as many songs in the music I listen to down to about 34hz often. Some go lower, but most do not.

 

[IamJF]

I added Neumann measurements for the 750, 810 and 870. Not sure about their conditions but they seem to be similarly reliable since the KH750 measurements line up decently, Neumann's even being somewhat more conservative.

The difference between all of these speakers, and all others, outside of output capability, is in directivity. The 3D radiation pattern is different for each.

Do you also have 10% THD measurements of the woofers?
I like to monitor THD in the midrange exactly cause it often shows problems and limits of the drivers. But at low frequencies ... some K3 can actually sound good ;-)

 

[Curvature]

Do you also have 10% THD measurements of the woofers?
I like to monitor THD in the midrange exactly cause it often shows problems and limits of the drivers. But at low frequencies ... some K3 can actually sound good ;-)

I didn't scan them. The 10% results have more output only in the LF for most of those speakers.

We don't know the composition of the distortion, so 3% could be any series of harmonics.

 

[IamJF]

I quickly added the 10% curve. As there is no port which helps with level and to keep THD low around this frequency it seems there is more THD with KH750 at low frequencies.
But as it's the only speaker where we have this data it's a little unfair, better stick with 3% for all of them for comparison.
At least it's possible to achieve about the same max level down to 40Hz with a pair of KH750 which is a good extension for KH120ii - KH310.

 

[rrahmanucla]

I've been dreaming of a Neumann speaker for a whiles, but I have always had one hesitation...

Can anyone postulate why Neumann recommends such short listening distances for the KH 120II (1m-2m) and KH150 (1m-2.5m)? Is it just a matter of achieving reference level SPL or are there other problems that might arise at lengthier listening distances? I know they were intended for near field, but seems like they would do just as well for larger rooms.

In short, I need a new speaker for a large room (3.5m+ listening distance) and tend not to listen very loud. Would these be a good option? If its an SPL issue, what if I just included a subwoofer?

 

[Ellebob]

It is SPL that is one factor of defining nearfield. The other is if the sound between all the drivers is combined at a given distance. For example larger speakers like a tower speaker the sound from all the drivers would not be combined at a meter away. Don't let the label nearfield dissuade you from considering any studio monitor. There is nothing different from a small studio monitor than a small bookshelf speaker for the home. They both typically have a 4-8" woofer and a tweeter usually with a waveguide.

They will sound Great at 3.5m but obviously won't be able to play as loud. But, they will probably play louder than most would use them for general listening. I almost always feel a sub is needed to play the lower octaves giving a richer, fuller sound but many are fine without it. You can always add it later.

 

[thewas]

It is not just a SPL issue, for quality monitoring the direct sound at the listening position should dominate over the reflected sounds, that is why such recommendations are quite short. Genelec also has similar recommendations with an explanation https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

 

[Pearljam5000]

At 1-1.5 meters
Would it be possible to hear a big difference between KH120 II and KH150?

 

[thewas]

At 1-1.5 meters
Would it be possible to hear a big difference between KH120 II and KH150?

Mainly with according source material that the KH150 goes a bit deeper in the bass. With sub(s) I would personally just go for the KH 120 II at that listening distance.

Source: https://www.neumann.com/en-en/products/monitors/kh-120-ii/

Source: https://www.neumann.com/en-en/products/monitors/kh-150/

 

[Ellebob]

It is not just a SPL issue, for quality monitoring the direct sound at the listening position should dominate over the reflected sounds, that is why such recommendations are quite short. Genelec also has similar recommendations with an explanation https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

This is true no matter what speaker you are using if listening close the direct sound will dominate. If listening further you will get more reflected sound combined with the direct sound. In a recording studio the room might be treated to allow more direct sound and reduce the reflected sound.

Neumann, Genelec and other studio monitor companies are giving recommendations for pro applications and not the home. Many people are missing out on some great sounding speakers because they believe they don't sound good if seated further away. This is simply false! If this was true we should say the same about almost all bookshelf speakers. Polk, Kef, Paradigm, Revel, etc. don't say to use their bookshelf speakers no more than 2 meters away. If you sit further and want loud you need larger speakers. If your volume needs are more moderate bookshelf sized speakers whether labeled a studio monitor or not will work just fine.

 

[thewas]

This is true no matter what speaker you are using if listening close the direct sound will dominate. If listening further you will get more reflected sound combined with the direct sound. In a recording studio the room might be treated to allow more direct sound and reduce the reflected sound.

Neumann, Genelec and other studio monitor companies are giving recommendations for pro applications and not the home. Many people are missing out on some great sounding speakers because they believe they don't sound good if seated further away. This is simply false! If this was true we should say the same about almost all bookshelf speakers. Polk, Kef, Paradigm, Revel, etc. don't say to use their bookshelf speakers no more than 2 meters away. If you sit further and want loud you need larger speakers. If your volume needs are more moderate bookshelf sized speakers whether labeled a studio monitor or not will work just fine.

This is a matter of personal preferences and experiences, I know many people who love also for recreational listening the "diving" into the sound field of a corresponding recording that only such direct sound dominating listening distances can provide. Bookshelf vs floorstanding loudspeakers doesn't play a significant role there, as usually such models of the same series have similar directivities.

 

[IamJF]

It is not just a SPL issue, for quality monitoring the direct sound at the listening position should dominate over the reflected sounds, that is why such recommendations are quite short. Genelec also has similar recommendations with an explanation https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

With normal bookshelf speakers you need to sit CLOSER cause they have wider and uneven sound radiation!

Nobody listens to direct sound at these distances in a living room - most people dont't know that experience and some even don't like it. It's simply not the usecase for casual listening in a living room.

Nevertheless - a good monitor has at least some directivity and brings
a) a little more direct sound to your listening position
b) more neutral over all sound in the room cause of controlled off axis sound.

A Subwoofer like KH750 gives you the last octave of the audio band - there is not a lot of music happening there but you will for sure not give it back when you tried it. But for listening loud you would need 2 of them.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Theoretically if I'm sitting @1 meters from the monitors am I hearing 100% of the direct sound and 0% of the room?