Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[Sokel]

Sokel, life's too short, go ahead and buy the damn things now!

Yep!
On the other hand I'm old enough to know that the difference will be small and the next day it will be like nothing changed.
It's only my desk,I have no expectations
(not the case if you buy double-triple the size with X4 the power,etc in tower speakers though,that you don't get used to)

 

[IamJF]

Yep!
On the other hand I'm old enough to know that the difference will be small and the next day it will be like nothing changed.
It's only my desk,I have no expectations
(not the case if you buy double-triple the size with X4 the power,etc in tower speakers though,that you don't get used to)

From the Fostex monitors I know this would be a significant upgrade, especially with MA-1!
You probably even detect you don't need the tripple size tower speakers

@D700 For the intended use a USB input port would be totally useless. You always have an audio interface or monitoring switcher to control your speakers. Digital input is great so you don't have useless convertions.
The USB port needs to be supported from the manufacturer, you need to direct the digital signal from one speaker to the other (you only plug in your computer to one) so you suddenly have a left and right speaker and so on ... it would make the whole system more expensive.
Just use one of these - they are cheaper as the integration of the USB interface in the speakers.

Fun Generation UA-202

Fun Generation UA-202; Audiointerface mit Phonopreamp; zwei Cinch-Eingänge R/L; zwei Cinch-Ausgänge R/L; koaxialer digital S/PDIF-Ausgang (stereo); Eingang umschaltbar Line/Phono; USB-buspowered; Masseanschluß für Plattenspieler; Power-LED;...

www.thomann.de

or

ESI U24 XL

ESI U24 XL, USB Audio-Interface, 24-Bit, 2 x Analog In/Out mit Klinkenanschluss, Ausgang L wahlweise als Kopfhörer-Ausgang nutzbar, S/PDIF-Digital Ein/Ausgang koaxial & optisch, für Windows XP/Vista/7/8 Mac OS X, USB Bus-Powered, inkl. Deckadance...

www.thomann.de

Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 MK2

Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 MK2; 6-Kanal Audiointerface; 24-Bit / 192 kHz; Anschlüsse: 2x Mic/Line/Instrument Combo Eingang XLR/Klinke 6.3 mm, 2x Line-Eingang 6.3 mm Klinke, 4x Line-Ausgang 6.3 mm Klinke DC-gekoppelt, S/PDIF Eingang coaxial,...

www.thomann.de

 

[Sokel]

From the Fostex monitors I know this would be a significant upgrade, especially with MA-1!
You probably even detect you don't need the tripple size tower speakers

The x times towers already exist (I'm a midbass lover,so... ) ,thing is the fostex's refuse to die and all this years I did the opposite of pampering them!

(yes,I have them blasted with full signal sine waves at times by accident during measurements ,hope neumanns are as durable! )

 

[perlindgren]

I raised the question with Neumann support, and Markus Wolff called back within 10 minutes.

I'm not sure if Neumann is monitoring this forum and want to make some official comment, in the meantime I'll recap my understanding of our conversation.

They are aware of potential resonances in the 300-350 range, where the design of the speaker implies relatively high element excursion. Markus mentioned this may cause resonances, especially on the backside where all connectors and knobs are potential sources for "rattling" resonances. So they made sure that these connectors/knobs etc. are not by themselves prone to resonate. Additionally, each unit is individually measured (including THD) to ensure that there are no QC (assembly) issues with the unit itself.

He mentioned that resonances can come from the setup (including the XLR connector and its locking mechanism).

So as far as I understand from our conversation, this type of "out of spec" resonances that Amir and Neuyes measured are not emitted by the speaker itself, but rather stem from the setup in one way or another. So hopefully we can see more measurements, with different setups (perhaps Coax/SPDIF to avoid potential XLR rattling issues).

Personally I haven't noticed any resonances when sine sweeping my pair of kh120ii, but I don't have an ideal listening environment, so it might be masked.

 

[musicforants]

I raised the question with Neumann support, and Markus Wolff called back within 10 minutes.

I'm not sure if Neumann is monitoring this forum and want to make some official comment, in the meantime I'll recap my understanding of our conversation.

They are aware of potential resonances in the 300-350 range, where the design of the speaker implies relatively high element excursion. Markus mentioned this may cause resonances, especially on the backside where all connectors and knobs are potential sources for "rattling" resonances. So they made sure that these connectors/knobs etc. are not by themselves prone to resonate. Additionally, each unit is individually measured (including THD) to ensure that there are no QC (assembly) issues with the unit itself.

He mentioned that resonances can come from the setup (including the XLR connector and its locking mechanism).

So as far as I understand from our conversation, this type of "out of spec" resonances that Amir and Neuyes measured are not emitted by the speaker itself, but rather stem from the setup in one way or another. So hopefully we can see more measurements, with different setups (perhaps Coax/SPDIF to avoid potential XLR rattling issues).

Personally I haven't noticed any resonances when sine sweeping my pair of kh120ii, but I don't have an ideal listening environment, so it might be masked.

if the problem is setup, and nothing to do with speaker, then how can two different ppl find resonance problem with their speaker measurement


like u said, hopefully we can see more measurements, with different setups

 

[kongkong]

I raised the question with Neumann support, and Markus Wolff called back within 10 minutes.

I'm not sure if Neumann is monitoring this forum and want to make some official comment, in the meantime I'll recap my understanding of our conversation.

They are aware of potential resonances in the 300-350 range, where the design of the speaker implies relatively high element excursion. Markus mentioned this may cause resonances, especially on the backside where all connectors and knobs are potential sources for "rattling" resonances. So they made sure that these connectors/knobs etc. are not by themselves prone to resonate. Additionally, each unit is individually measured (including THD) to ensure that there are no QC (assembly) issues with the unit itself.

He mentioned that resonances can come from the setup (including the XLR connector and its locking mechanism).

So as far as I understand from our conversation, this type of "out of spec" resonances that Amir and Neuyes measured are not emitted by the speaker itself, but rather stem from the setup in one way or another. So hopefully we can see more measurements, with different setups (perhaps Coax/SPDIF to avoid potential XLR rattling issues).

Personally I haven't noticed any resonances when sine sweeping my pair of kh120ii, but I don't have an ideal listening environment, so it might be masked.

I don't think so... This thd data seems not to be like that.
As a Neumann speaker user, I will wait more tested sample.

 

[jae]

Does neumann software support multiple (or stereo) subs yet?

 

[HQY]

Does neumann software support multiple (or stereo) subs yet?

Ma1 supports 2 subs in a stereo setup.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Ma1 supports 2 subs in a stereo setup.

The 2 subs themselves are in mono, though. Behaving like 1 Sub in 2 cabinets.

 

[HQY]

The 2 subs themselves are in mono, though. Behaving like 1 Sub in 2 cabinets.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn’t expect that when I bought the 2nd 750. But eventually it turns out good.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Thank you for the clarification. I didn’t expect that when I bought the 2nd 750. But eventually it turns out good.

A mono configuration of the subs is necessary AFAIK to get the benefits of a more smooth bass in the room. This does not work the same with stereo subs. So, using a mono sub configuration is "standard", while stereo subs is more exotic. I read somewhere that most bass content below 80Hz is mixed in mono anyway. So, for most mono subs are the better choice anyway.

 

[perlindgren]

if the problem is setup, and nothing to do with speaker, then how can two different ppl find resonance problem with their speaker measurement


like u said, hopefully we can see more measurements, with different setups

Well, as I understand, the speaker is slightly more resonant in the range 300-350 Hz (due to the speaker design having relative high element excursion in this frequency range), thus it is more prone to installation effects in this region as well.

If no installation effects are present the speaker by itself should follow the THD curve presented by Neumann according to Markus, and to my understanding each unit is tested to comply to the presented specs.I guess, its not unlikely for different setups to hit some resonance in this range. Also Nuyes measurements showed slightly different results for different samples (he PMed me some per sample measurements).

So to conclude, a slightly higher THD (due to resonance) is to be expected in the range 300-350Hz but still within the spec provided by Neumann.

 

[Ellebob]

Two or more subs is about fixing room problems and getting more consistent bass at the seating locations. Playing bass on the left sub can give totally different response than playing bass through the right sub. That's why stereo subs don't work in small acoustic spaces. Subs (and seating) need to be placed to get the best response.

 

[IamJF]

In real life there is no difference in Stereo or Mono sub settings when the SOURCE is mono anyways in that frequency range! Putting it into a mono setup is just to be sure and sometimes easier to control.
I belive Neumann Software EQs the 2 subs differently in a 2.2 setup? But not sure about that, never tried it.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I belive Neumann Software EQs the 2 subs differently in a 2.2 setup? But not sure about that, never tried it.

Yes. I made measurements of a 2.2 MA1 setup.

Neumann MA1 vs. Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) - Dual KH750 subs

Hello, i have a dual sub Neumann system (2x KH310, 2x KH750 DSP). I use the MA1 microphone and software for room EQ. I also own a Dirac Live license (PC standalone) that i have not used for a long time. Because Dirac released DLBC, i decided to get the trial version and compare the results of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DJBonoBobo]

The new issue of Sound & Recording features a review of the KH120 II (German, 7.80 EUR).

Sound & Recording 4/2023

Black Lion Audio Bluey 500: FET–Kompressor +++ Toontrack EZkeys 2: Piano-Library +++ Clavia Nord Stage 4: Stagepiano

www.soundandrecording.de

No surprises.
Edit: I see no sign of that 300Hz resonance.

 

[jhaider]

The new issue of Sound & Recording features a review of the KH120 II (German, 7.80 EUR).

Sound & Recording 4/2023

Black Lion Audio Bluey 500: FET–Kompressor +++ Toontrack EZkeys 2: Piano-Library +++ Clavia Nord Stage 4: Stagepiano

www.soundandrecording.de

No surprises.
Edit: I see no sign of that 300Hz resonance.

I found one big surprise in the review - how little ground KH 120 II cedes to KH 150 in bass output.

I'm not going to post the graphs - anyone interested can buy an "einzelheft" (single issue) from S&R's website for about 8.50 USD as I did, or wait until the measurements are on the website.

But to briefly summarize: frustratingly, the frequency windows for both reviews are different, but KH 120 II seems to only be about 1dB in capability off from KH 150. (F3 on KH 150 is 6 Hz lower.) That also puts KH 120 II in the same bass output ballpark of JBL 705P in terms of output, with a similar F3. I did not expect that at all. Very, very impressive, Neumann!

 

[perlindgren]

I found one big surprise in the review - how little ground KH 120 II cedes to KH 150 in bass output.

I'm not going to post the graphs - anyone interested can buy an "einzelheft" (single issue) from S&R's website for about 8.50 USD as I did, or wait until the measurements are on the website.

But to briefly summarize: frustratingly, the frequency windows for both reviews are different, but KH 120 II seems to only be about 1dB in capability off from KH 150. (F3 on KH 150 is 6 Hz lower.) That also puts KH 120 II in the same bass output ballpark of JBL 705P in terms of output, with a similar F3. I did not expect that at all. Very, very impressive, Neumann!

Very interesting. Maybe frequency response and output levels are more limited by the amplification than the element/enclosure/porting (to my understanding amplification is the same for 120II and 150). (I'm waiting for the measurements to go online.)

 

[Curvature]

frustratingly, the frequency windows for both reviews are different, but KH 120 II seems to only be about 1dB in capability off from KH 150.

FR:

Max SPL:

FR vs. Max SPL:

 

[Curvature]

I scanned the rest of the max SPL measurements by S&R for the Neumann series:

Overall, SPL at a specific level of THD seems more interesting than the usual absolute/relative THD level measurements. @amirm Something to consider in your reviews may be to plot SPL vs. THD at 0.1%, 1%, 3%, 10% (for example), all of which can plotted on a single graph and compared speaker to speaker more simply.