Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

[tktran303]

I'm talking about Sound Power Response, as defined by CTA2034A/spinorama.

But you are right, power handling drops like a rock anywhere below the port tuning frequency. This is one reason why distortion goes way UP below the frequency of the port/passive radiator.

eg.: port's peak output (tuning) is around 70Hz

Distortion:

Distortion momentarily dips at port tuning frequency (~70Hz), but then GOES WAY WAY UP, OFF THE CHART, literally, below 70Hz.

With passive ported speakers, you tend have to be around and have judicious use of the volume control. You can't just turn it up to 11 and go off to party.

One advantage of active speakers is that one can program into the DSP to limit the SPL output going off the deep end and blowing out the woofer and suspension.

 

[fineMen]

...
eg.: port's peak output (tuning) is around 70Hz

Not quite. From the speaker's response I would conclude a 50-ish tuning. Anything higher wouldn't make sense, so Neuman cannot be accused of that. The peak from the port gets shifted upwards due to the general bass response. Not the least, with the 'nearfield' the sources aren't propperly separated.

The 120 would love to be supported by an extra bass each, up to about 150Hz, so not actually sub-terrain ;-)

Done that, at least for home use, the system is perfect. What else would one ask for? As in the Olympics, does it actually make sense to keep the 100m sprint competition? There's no progression since 2009 despite more clandestine doping or newer tech nobody could or should afford. 9,58s to beat.

 

[thewas]

It would be somewhat interesting to see how the ProAc Studio 100 measures on the Klippel NFS.

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it had a reasonable power response or predicted in-room response.

I doubt it would seeing these directivities of it:

Fig.4 ProAc Studio 100, horizontal response family at 45", normalized to response on tweeter axis, from back to front: differences in response 90°–5° off-axis on other side of baffle from tweeter; reference response; differences in response 5°–90° off-axis on tweeter side of baffle.

Fig.5 ProAc Studio 100, vertical response family at 45", normalized to response on tweeter axis, from back to front: differences in response 45°–5° off-axis above; reference response; differences in response 5°–45° off-axis below.

At least its listening window response is quite flat so in a nearfield studio setting its directivity problems would be only secondary:

Fig.3 ProAc Studio 100, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 45" averaged across 30° horizontal window and corrected for microphone response, with complex sum of nearfield woofer and port responses below 300Hz.

Source and more measurements:

ProAc Studio 100 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

By the way I even had bought myself in the past a pair of ProAc Studio 130 floorstanders and I sold them quickly as they sounded weird to me, unfortunately at that time I didn't have the knowledge and equipment to measure them myself.

 

[holdingpants01]

Done that, at least for home use, the system is perfect. What else would one ask for? As in the Olympics, does it actually make sense to keep the 100m sprint competition? There's no progression since 2009 despite more clandestine doping or newer tech nobody could or should afford. 9,58s to beat.

olympics are not about some kind of guinness world record competition and this record wasn't even set during olympics. Anyway I had KH120 for 2 years and worked on them every day, definitely not the end game speaker, just the best in it's rather small category: 2 way active near field, ~5" woofer non-coaxial studio monitor. Also no one will ever filter them at 150Hz, for above 80Hz or so you can certainly do better and for full range they can't even compete with 3 other Neumann monitors

 

[fineMen]

olympics are not about some kind of guinness world record competition and this record wasn't even set during olympics. Anyway I had KH120 for 2 years and worked on them every day, definitely not the end game speaker, just the best in it's rather small category: 2 way active near field, ~5" woofer non-coaxial studio monitor

I mean, the spinorama is meant to tell it all. So, as you implicate, we have hidden parameters. What are they?

 

[holdingpants01]

I mean, the spinorama is meant to tell it all. So, as you implicate, we have hidden parameters. What are they?

In reality no one would use them as you suggest yet you propose stopping trying making other monitors because you like a half of operational range of this one. Spinorama can show a lot, but how monitor will work in a given room and specific requirements of a listener is a whole another thing. There's a reason Neumann makes also other models

 

[fineMen]

... because you like a half of operational range of this one

Add woofers for each piece of a pair (stereo mode) up to 150Hz, as I required.
What are the (infamously) 'hidden parameters'?

 

[holdingpants01]

Add woofers for each piece of a pair (stereo mode) up to 150Hz, as I required.
What are the (infamously) 'hidden parameters'?

I won't, I use better monitors now. If you're not happy with KH120 performance you can try bigger model or even a different company, no one is stopping you

 

[heflys20]

His assistant that's doing mostly atmos upmixing now is using them for stereo work as well, but at least he got Genelec 83x1 + W371A based system, yet he said it's too good sounding for mixing lol/

Most annoying thing I read on "pro" forums. If the speakers sound too good, they must be terrible for mixing. Then they'll suggest a speaker they claim is "neutral" (like the Yahama HS5, which is anything but), because it's not enjoyable to listen to.

 

[fineMen]

I won't, I use better monitors now. If you're not happy with KH120 performance you can try bigger model or even a different company, no one is stopping you

cyjanopan, my claim was that the 120, an extra woofer pair (stereo) required, could substitute a whole plethora of less perfect speakers for home use. Most of the latter for a higher cost anyway. Now you discard a prerequisite of my statement, and still hold it against me?

All forgiven, but what makes a 'better monitor' as you reiterate? What makes it better other than available SPL and bass (related)? Coming back to the Olympics, first do we all need to run 100m in 9,58s, and second if so, would we need the appropriate shoes in nice colors for every day? No, but if I can have both within my pedestrian budget, I'll happily take it one and the other.

What I want to convey is that there is a limit to what a speaker can do. Neuman touched the finish line, race over. Only thing left to do is to spread the word. Now studios need (!) to accept that personal taste is a bad thing for a cook, uups sound designer. Customers at home need (!) to understand that there is no 'better' speaker regardless what the salesman talks. So we align source and destination of the communication line as to transmit meaning. (Instead of pride of ownership of one of the sides.)

I'm talking about 'serious' high fidelity only.

 

[holdingpants01]

Most annoying thing I read on "pro" forums. If the speakers sound too good, they must be terrible for mixing. Then they'll suggest a speaker they claim is "neutral" (like the Yahama HS5, which is anything but), because it's not enjoyable to listen to.

I mean there's some truth to that, if one was always mixing on flawed monitoring (like NS10s, Sennheiser HD600, cars etc.) then switching over late in the career isn't a good idea for multiple of reasons. Those are just 100% personal opinions and nothing more

 

[holdingpants01]

cyjanopan, my claim was that the 120, an extra woofer pair (stereo) required, could substitute a whole plethora of less perfect speakers for home use. Most of the latter for a higher cost anyway. Now you discard a prerequisite of my statement, and still hold it against me?

All forgiven, but what makes a 'better monitor' as you reiterate? What makes it better other than available SPL and bass (related)? Coming back to the Olympics, first do we all need to run 100m in 9,58s, and second if so, would we need the appropriate shoes in nice colors for every day? No, but if I can have both within my pedestrian budget, I'll happily take it one and the other.

What I want to convey is that there is a limit to what a speaker can do. Neuman touched the finish line, race over. Only thing left to do is to spread the word. Now studios need (!) to accept that personal taste is a bad thing for a cook, uups sound designer. Customers at home need (!) to understand that there is no 'better' speaker regardless what the salesman talks. So we align source and destination of the communication line as to transmit meaning. (Instead of pride of ownership of one of the sides.)

I'm talking about 'serious' high fidelity only.

this is just absurd and not worth going further

 

[heflys20]

I mean there's some truth to that, if one was always mixing on flawed monitoring (like NS10s, Sennheiser HD600, cars etc.) then switching over late in the career isn't a good idea for multiple of reasons. Those are just 100% personal opinions and nothing more

That made me laugh out loud, but it's true. It's just shame when some of these guys influence new members into making bad purchasing decisions. IMHO.

 

[fineMen]

I mean there's some truth to that, if one was always mixing on flawed monitoring (like NS10s, Sennheiser HD600, cars etc.) then switching over late in the career isn't a good idea for multiple of reasons. Those are just 100% personal opinions and nothing more

this is just absurd and not worth going further

Yep, it is absurd that the tools of a sound engineer are considered to be a legitimate matter of taste! As if a wrench would come in arbitrary sizes, for each his own. All those excuses for deviating from good practice, let alone de facto standards. A vanity fair.

To give a more positive perspective, the sound engineer / mixer is utterly free to design the recording to his taste, granted. But the tools he uses to validate the result of his work need to be standardized. So that the customer of all that fine art of record-making can listen to the identical sound, with reasonable tolerances, as the producer. Isn't *that* meant with high fidelity?! If not, what else? ... ... ... ... ...

 

[dweeeeb2]

Ive just got my first sub! Im now a 2.1 system . Anyway, messing around with bass has really got me stumped. Do I actually want a flat response? I mean how do we know what bass response was used to master the music? And then did they boost it to “help” crappy customer speakers or airpods? Im not sure of my target at the moment.

 

[DearSX]

Ive just got my first sub! Im now a 2.1 system . Anyway, messing around with bass has really got me stumped. Do I actually want a flat response? I mean how do we know what bass response was used to master the music? And then did they boost it to “help” crappy customer speakers or airpods? Im not sure of my target at the moment.

Well every mastering will be different for every song. I have a manual EQ in my car for example and usually dial more or less bass on like every song on the fly, as I am bumping it does the street. Usually when I get things sounding good I get a thumbs up or dancing from those I pass by . Michael Jackson and MC Hammer are crowd pleasers, could do it with my EQ and X-over

 

[kemmler3D]

This is pretty nuts for a 5.25" monitor. Has to be on your list if you're not in the market for the truly big guns. I guess this is what a well-designed speaker with good DSP looks like. Makes me wonder what DIYers might do now that Hypex plate amps support FIR...

 

[kemmler3D]

how do we know what bass response was used to master the music? And then did they boost it to “help” crappy customer speakers or airpods? Im not sure of my target at the moment.

In a good studio I think they'll have flat bass down as low as they can get it, for the most part. However, mixing bass is a little subjective depending on genre and intended listening environment, as you note. And for home listening, bass levels are considered more a matter of taste.

If you are actually mixing, shoot for flat and rely on "known good" reference tracks for bass.

 

[Hemi-Demon]

Since these are dsp based, I assume it is "optimal" to use the spdif digital input. For computer based listening what dac/adc has a USB input, spdif output AND an adequate volume knob?

Or is everyone running something like the RME Babyface pro?

 

[astcal]

I have KH 750 + KH 80s for my computer desk system which is calibrated via MA-1. Wondering if I replace the KH 80s with KH 120 II, would the low pass frequency change since KH120 can go lower frequency ?

I saw some comments in this thread that, for a desk/table system, KH 120 II would provide NO more practical benefit over KH 80 in a KH 750 system, Is this confirmed or just theoretical analysis ?