Neumann KH 80 DSP Speaker Measurements: Take Two

[thewas]

Managed to grab Klippel's own measurement of the bigger KH120 of one of their webinars.

View attachment 63961

Thanks for confirming its sound power problems above 1,5 khz I had mentioned here and here.

 

[QMuse]

Thanks for confirming its sound power problems above 1,5 khz I had mentioned here and here.

Yep, there they are. But these issues look easy to correct with EQ, so why haven't they done that?

 

[thewas]

That directivity step at 1,5-2 Khz unfortunately cannot be really corrected with EQ, otherwise it wouldn't be just just a sound power problem but also on-axis/LW.

 

[QMuse]

That directivity step at 1,5-2 Khz unfortunately cannot be really corrected with EQ, otherwise it wouldn't be just just a sound power problem but also on-axis/LW.

Sure, but I wanted to say that directivity bump at 1.5kHz is relatively small while non-linearity of LW/ER/SP actually isn't.

 

[thewas]

Sure, but I wanted to say that directivity bump at 1.5kHz is relatively small while non-linearity of LW/ER/SP actually isn't.

For the high standard that Neumann monitors pursue I personally don't find it small, the rest as you say can anyway be EQed.
How it should be done is shown by the comparable Genelec model

 

[QMuse]

For the high standard that Neumann monitors pursue I personally don't find it small, the rest as you say can anyway be EQed.
How it should be done is shown by the comparable Genelec model

Sure, but it is the smoothness in LW/ER/SP that more affects preference than smoothnes in DI's, so EQ-ing LW/ER/SP would certainly make it sound better and yield a better score. That is why I can't understand why they haven't EQ-ed it.

On the other hand, ASR measurement looks far better than the one posted by @TimVG .

 

[TimVG]

Step in ER/SP is probably caused by cancellation around crossover in the vertical plane. All non-coincidental drive arrays will have this in one way or another.

*Actually the Genelec 8030C has it as well in a steady state measurement: After my LW correction it still showed up in the steady state measurement but less so. My own 'before' steady state measurement at LP did correlate very well with Genelec's own SP measurment.

LW before

After

Steady state before & after at listening position.

 

[TimVG]

On the other hand, ASR measurement looks far better than the one posted by @TimVG .

Different speaker (KH80 @ASR vs KH120 @ klippel)

 

[QMuse]

Different speaker (KH80 @ASR vs KH120 @ klippel)

 

[infinitesymphony]

If Amir confirms these KH120 measurements with his Klippel setup (and we have no reason to believe they should be any different), it would be disappointing. That FR seems like a bad trade-off just to gain 10 Hz of low end extension. Perhaps the benefits become clearer at higher SPLs and with the DSP enabled.

 

[matt3421]

I am glad the problem doesn't seem to be as bad on the KH 80

 

[hyperplanar]

Managed to grab Klippel's own measurement of the bigger KH120 of one of their webinars.

View attachment 63961

Are you sure that's a KH120 being measured here? The response >1 KHz doesn't look anything like my measurements

 

[hyperplanar]

Perhaps the benefits become clearer at higher SPLs and with the DSP enabled.

They're an all analog design, there's no DSP inside.

 

[TimVG]

Are you sure that's a KH120 being measured here? The response >1 KHz doesn't look anything like my measurements

Either the KH120 or Behringer has really stepped up their game.

 

[hyperplanar]

Either the KH120 or Behringer has really stepped up their game.

View attachment 64170

LOL, don't underestimate Behringer, they have some gems in their product lineup!

I'm assuming this was the picture in the webinar? Maybe the tested device was something other than a KH120 and Klippel just happened to have a picture of a KH120 being tested handy. That's a huge scoop in the upper midrange on-axis, I think that would be visible in any in-room measurement...

Here's an uncorrected on-axis measurement of my left KH120, 1/24 octave smoothing.

And windowed:

 

[TimVG]

It was in fact the KH120 being measured. You can have a look at the webinars if you're interested in (a lot) more details.

https://www.klippel.de/know-how/education/webinars.html

 

[hyperplanar]

It was in fact the KH120 being measured. You can have a look at the webinars if you're interested in (a lot) more details.

https://www.klippel.de/know-how/education/webinars.html

Thanks for the link. Huh. I'm intrigued! I'm curious why the dip here is narrower and nearly 5 dB deep, while the other graph has a much broader 2.5 dB dip.

 

[TimVG]

Thanks for the link. Huh. I'm intrigued! I'm curious why the dip here is narrower and nearly 5 dB deep, while the other graph has a much broader 2.5 dB dip.
View attachment 64183

If I'm correct the system is here measuring and presenting data in the nearfield, while the eventual spinorama result gets extrapolated to a distance of 2m - I'm not an expert on the system though.

 

[andreasmaaan]

FWIW, my own measurements of a KH120 I had years ago (now long lost) also showed a depression in the presence region, which actually filled out somewhat (but not completely) slightly off-axis (below axis IIRC), suggesting a time misalignment between the drivers.

And both this speaker and the KH120 seem to have the same odd bass alignment, with a dip in the midbass and a little bump at the port tuning frequency.

For those two reasons, and the limited output, I was never a fan of the KH120.

 

[hyperplanar]

If I'm correct the system is here measuring and presenting data in the nearfield, while the eventual spinorama result gets extrapolated to a distance of 2m - I'm not an expert on the system though.

Ah, that makes sense. Still, the FR doesn't seem to look like any other measurements online:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/neumann/kh-120-a.htm#meas

Or Sound und Recording's measurement (sorry for the painfully low resolution)

So I'm lost as to what's causing the discrepancy in FR here.