Neumann KH 80 DSP Monitor Review

[amirm]

Sorry I don't know what this graph is saying.

It is showing the max SPL possible with 3% THD allowance above 250 Hz, and 10% below.

 

[JIW]

Sorry I don't know what this graph is saying. The dark line is SPL and the red line is THD below 250hz? If that's so, it seems consistent aside from the greater spike at 70hz. If the red line is supposed to be max SPL, no idea then.

Both curves are max SPL for a given THD for a sine burst. Blue/dark is for THD of 3% and red is for THD of 10% below 250 Hz.

 

[Sancus]

Both curves are max SPL for a given THD for a sine burst. Blue/dark is for THD of 3% and red is for THD of 10% below 250 Hz.

I see. Well, if it will let you exceed 3% thd for additional SPL then perhaps the issue here isn't compression. Or maybe Neumann changed their DSP at some point to be more limiting. Dunno.

 

[HammerSandwich]

@amirm, when you listen at your desk, do you utilize the speakers' boundary adjustments? If so, are the settings determined by ear, measurement or manufacturer recommendation?

 

[amirm]

Sounds fine to me thanks but allow me scream for vertical scale in spinorama graphs where ANSI/CTA-2034-A document calls for a 50dB number, ASR review for JBL 305P MKii was very close to that 50dB number but from then on it ran wider, think 50dB acoustic scales as a standard is good to press design industri of transducers and speaker systems because stuff can really get bad looking there compared to 100dB or wider as seen from time to time.

Thanks. I am in a bit of a pickle in that I am running my sweeps at 106 dB, and the others are at 90 dB. I could lie to the system and make it think it is at 90 dB. Soundstage does this I think. What say you?

 

[amirm]

@amirm, when you listen at your desk, do you utilize the speakers' boundary adjustments? If so, are the settings determined by ear, measurement or manufacturer recommendation?

No, I keep them the same on both speakers (no compensation). Since there is no standardization, trying to compare them with compensation settings makes comparisons different. And would not match how the measurements are performed.

Personally I would run an EQ and not rely on such switches anyway.

 

[matt3421]

Maybe you got used to the sound of the JBL, after comparing them with everything else? I think we need measurements to overcome our biases, and this is a perfect example of you maybe being unconsciously biased towards the sound you are already familiar with.

It happens to me all the time that after a long listening session with my headphones, my speakers sound "off", and vice versa when I listen to headphones after a long time with my speakers. The brain needs to adjust.

Anyway, I would like to see how Genelec compares here.

@amirm can keep the speaker for longer if he wants to do more listening comparisons.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So are we going to get the preference rating on the 305P mk II from MKZM? I believe he just needed the data.

Oops, I see Amir just posted the needed data a short while ago up thread. So I'm sure when he has time we will get it from MKZM.

 

[thewas]

The system is not "newly released." It was introduced back in 2015 or nearly five years ago. It is specifically designed to correct for errors in anechoic chambers. It is used by who is who in the industry already. Here are published results from Harman using this system:

I personally am looking at loudspeaker measurements from publications all over the world and you are the first one I see who uses it (which honours you) as its a big investment, as you say Harman uses it, but I haven't seen specific measurements of theirs which I can compare directly to other methods and institutes.
Also I know for what it is designed, still as an engineer I have learned to be always suspicious about measurements I perform and that independently from the price (we also have equipment that costs some several 100k) , in German we say "Wer viel misst, misst viel Mist", a word play with the words misst (= measuring) and Mist (=crap) saying if you measure alot you can measure also alot of crap.

Anyway, the difference is tiny and not material.

I find it significant, especially after a similar problem with the Kali.

If you don't trust it, that is cool. If you are asking me to run to Klippel, I won't do so since there is nothing actionable here.

I don't expect you of course to run to Klippel, but if I were you I would talk about them about it.

I think you are abandoning caution in believing speaker measurements as flat as what you have reported. Such an animal does not exist and requires huge justification for any measurement that shows it such. Put your doubt there, not in my measurements.

Flat speakers exist, its not difficult at all to tune a DSP speaker like the KH80 as flat as it is, Neumann even did so on their previous non-DSP monitors. A good engineer should always have doubt also in his personal work when it differs to others, a very expensive rig isn't a 100% guarantee for anything. Please don't get me wrong, I will be happy if I am proven wrong, but personally I would try to investigate out the reasons of those discrepancies to be 100% sure. If you don't want to do so and trust your measurements 100% that is ok for you, but you must also than bear that others may have a different viewpoint.

 

[napilopez]

Thanks @amirm ! Was looking forward to seeing this speaker tested. Measurements match all the other ones out there minus a bit of a dip in the bass, which I suspect is related to the SPL level.

One question: What was your refernece axis? Neumann says it's the point where the waveguide and tweeter woofer meet (Edit: technically, 12.9cm from the bottom of the speaker). That (very small!) dip at 2K looks like the response at the tweeter axis from my recollection.

Personally I think 90 dB @1m is loud for this particular speaker's intended usage, and I'm not sure if powered speakers meant for nearfield use should be using the same standard as regular loudspeakers - or at least it's a good idea to measure at different SPL levels to see when compression kicks in. But it's not crazy loud either, just surprised to see that (again, small! - just being picky) dip there since I haven't seen it in the two anechoic measurements I've seen (nor my own quasi-anechoic ones, for whatever that's worth).

I wonder if using SPL the switch on the rear would have allowed more bass at the expense of some distortion. Here's neumann's own graph on SPL limits (Blue 3 percent THD, Green 1 percent) :

More surprising to me is the fact that you preferred the 305P, especially the fact that you thought it sounded bigger despite having narrower directivity than the KH80. There's a lot of little things to hearing and I definitely don't think it's impossible - I just haven't seen any compelling evidence yet that bigger speakers actually sound "bigger." Could just be the small difference in bass though.

Anyway, a great speaker and thank you again, I'm just being nitpicky since as far as I know, this is supposed to be the flattest speaker on the market.

 

[Ron Texas]

This is a very important review. The KH80 is a current product and there is a ton of interest in it and the KH120 in this forum. While not the deal the JBL's are, it's within the reasonable price range. I think @amirm test system is the bee's knees.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Amir, i have one important question about the measurement: The photo indicates that the "Settings"-control has been switched to one of the "Network control" options. This means that any setting made by the owner have been active.
IMO to rule this out the correct position should have been the second from top. Or are you sure that there was no active network setting?

I quote the manual:
"CONTROL
If the SETTINGS switch has been set to one of the two LOCAL CONTROL positions, the KH 80 DSP
will not react to network commands. Control of the loudspeaker will be from the backplate
only.
If the SETTINGS switch has been set to one of the two NETWORK CONTROL positions, the
KH 80 DSP will react to network commands from the Neumann.Control iPad® App. The other
backplate controls will be ignored.
If the SETTINGS switch is set to NETWORK CONTROL but there is no network connection and
active Neumann.Control iPad® App, the last used network configuration will be used.
If you have configured any settings via the Neumann.Control iPad® App and you remove the
network cable, the current settings will stay active.
By switching from network control to local control you can easily switch between a configuration
measured in the Neumann.Control iPad® App and settings made directly on the loudspeaker.
This can make sense if you want to temporarily use the loudspeaker in a different location than
your measured studio environment.
The loudspeaker does not lose its settings even when disconnecting it from the network or the
mains supply."

 

[amirm]

One question: What was your refernece axis? Neumann says it's the point where the waveguide and tweeter meet. That (very small!) dip at 2K looks like the response at the tweeter axis from my recollection.

I can't get a microphone into such a small area. The reference I used was the center of the tweeter, plus or minus a few millimeters.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Manual says: "The acoustical axis of the KH 80 DSP is located at the midpoint of the bass and tweeter drivers."

That´s not where waveguide and tweeter meet, it´s where waveguide and woofer meet! It´s on line with the Neumann-logo.

 

[JIW]

I wonder if using SPL the switch on the rear would have allowed more bass at the expense of some distortion.

It's just gain.

One question: What was your refernece axis? Neumann says it's the point where the waveguide and tweeter meet. That (very small!) dip at 2K looks like the response at the tweeter axis from my recollection.

It's the halfway point between the centres of the drivers (see manual p. 6): 12.9 cm from the bottom and 7.7 cm from the sides.

 

[digitalfrost]

So from personal experience, I know that slight deviations (from the tweeter axis) make a lot of difference, especially in higher frequencies where the wavelenghts are short. I usually put my measurement mic at tweeter height, which might not be correct depending on speaker and crossover topology.

That said, the measurements look much too perfect, especially in the high frequency range, for this to be an issue. So I wonder if Klippel can somehow compensate for that with their wizardy. If the 2khz range were affected by that, we should surely see bigger issues higher up the frequency range?!

 

[napilopez]

I can't get a microphone into such a small area. The reference I used was the center of the tweeter, plus or minus a few millimeters.

Manual says: "The acoustical axis of the KH 80 DSP is located at the midpoint of the bass and tweeter drivers."

That´s not where waveguide and tweeter meet, it´s where waveguide and woofer meet! It´s on line with the Neumann-logo.

Sorry @DjBonoBobo that's exactly what I meant! Brain fart. And @amirm - that would probably explain the 2K dip then, at least. Per manual:

Small difference, not saying it's necessarily worth remeasuring, but neumann is one of the few that provide an exact acoustic reference, so it's worth noting, especialy going forard. Lots of speakers, especially among those with waveguides, have their reference axes somewhere around where the waveguide and woofer meet. The KH80 is well controlled enough that it's a small difference, but others, like the Buchardt S400, showed pretty massive deviations just a few degrees off (the S400 then straightens out at steeper off axis angles, but just giving an example).

 

[HammerSandwich]

No, I keep them the same on both speakers (no compensation). Since there is no standardization, trying to compare them with compensation settings makes comparisons different. And would not match how the measurements are performed.

Understood. And totally reasonable.

However, this might be a good clue about your preference for the 305.

Compared to the very flat KH80, the JBL is shelved down in the 200-600Hz range. And this area is almost exactly what the KH80's boundary-EQ attenuates. Placing both speakers on a desk should make the JBL pretty flat thru the low mids while making the KH80 a bit heavy there. Seems to me that that's consistent with the better zing & clarity you found in the 305.

 

[MZKM]

Thanks @amirm ! Was looking forward to seeing this speaker tested. Measurements match all the other ones out there minus a bit of a dip in the bass, which I suspect is related to the SPL level.

One question: What was your refernece axis? Neumann says it's the point where the waveguide and tweeter woofer meet (Edit: technically, 12.9cm from the bottom of the speaker). That (very small!) dip at 2K looks like the response at the tweeter axis from my recollection.

Personally I think 90 dB @1m is loud for this particular speaker's intended usage, and I'm not sure if powered speakers meant for nearfield use should be using the same standard as regular loudspeakers - or at least it's a good idea to measure at different SPL levels to see when compression kicks in. But it's not crazy loud either, just surprised to see that (again, small! - just being picky) dip there since I haven't seen it in the two anechoic measurements I've seen (nor my own quasi-anechoic ones, for whatever that's worth).

I wonder if using SPL the switch on the rear would have allowed more bass at the expense of some distortion. Here's neumann's own graph on SPL limits (Blue 3 percent THD, Green 1 percent) :

View attachment 46846

More surprising to me is the fact that you preferred the 305P, especially the fact that you thought it sounded bigger despite having narrower directivity than the KH80. There's a lot of little things to hearing and I definitely don't think it's impossible - I just haven't seen any compelling evidence yet that bigger speakers actually sound "bigger." Could just be the small difference in bass though.

Anyway, a great speaker and thank you again, I'm just being nitpicky since as far as I know, this is supposed to be the flattest speaker on the market.

While it may be worthwhile, keep in mind their own vertical polar plots show constrained directivity at the same region.

 

[Pio2001]

Thanks. I am in a bit of a pickle in that I am running my sweeps at 106 dB, and the others are at 90 dB. I could lie to the system and make it think it is at 90 dB. Soundstage does this I think. What say you?

Hi,
I think that Byrtt was talking about the vertical scale of the graph, that is zoomed out in the latest reviews compared to the first ones.
I've noticed it too : the first graphs had 5 dB per division, while we now have 10 dB per division.
It is important to stick to a given convention, as it has a strong visual effect when we compare the speakers between them. A zoomed out vertical scale makes the frequency response look nicer.