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Neumann KH 80 DSP Monitor Review

napilopez

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I actually think your logic is the perfect reason for doing every measurement consistently on the tweeter axis. As you know, I use KEF LS50s as my mains, which are not that great on-axis and much better off-axis. KEF mentions in the whitepaper that the LS50 are smoother about 10 deg off-axis but if we didn't know that it's obvious from the Spin that the listening window measures better than directly on-axis so we can use that information when we position them. I've seen a few Revel speakers, The F228be most recently, that measures most flat on-axis and tapers off a bit off-axis, this is a great benefit of the CTA-2034 measurement in my opinion, it allows you to place it where it sounds best.
The problem, as I've mentioned several times, is that some speakers sound and measure significantly worse even a few degrees off in the vertical axis. It will also be a problem for speakers with built-in tilt. Perhaps also for speakers ribbon tweeters with narrower vertical directivity than horizontal. The Neumann have some of the best controlled vertical directivity for vertical two-way. Repeat this with a lesser speaker and you might misrepresent its performance.

A manufacturer specifying the intended listening axis a design choice as surely using a particular driver, shaping a waveguide in particular way, or using a specific crossover for specific loving

In any case, I don't understand bringing up CTA2034A when the paper specifically says to measure at the manufacturer reference point first and use the tweeter or between the tweeter and mids only if the manufacturer doesn't specify. Otherwise they'd just come out and say ignore the recommendation and always measure at the tweeter.
 
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@Thunderlips you seem way off base with your tone on Amir's motivations. Really I'd request you delete a couple of those posts.
Deleted. I just don’t like that some hinted Amirm is doing us all a favor and shouldn’t be questioned. It goes both way. This forum would not exists without its viewership. Knowledgeable people have pointed out flaws in the measurement process and it’s only fair to not brush them aside.
 

Blumlein 88

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Deleted. I just don’t like that some hinted Amirm is doing us all a favor and shouldn’t be questioned. It goes both way. This forum would not exists without its viewership. Knowledgeable people have pointed out flaws in the measurement process and it’s only fair to not brush them aside.
Thank you for your deletions.
 

Blumlein 88

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Up to date list after acoustic scan number seven for JBL One Series 104, all seven graphs are divided with microphone calibration but it doesn't mean anything below 12kHz ;)
View attachment 47433 ;)
I know this is ignoring so much, but just looking at this one graph, I'd rate the Neumann 1st, Revel C52 2nd and 305 mkII third. I believe those also are how the prediction preference scoring formula ranks them according to MZKM's postings.
 

BYRTT

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Agree include C52 and funny in yesterday speculation did this overlay those three united at 640Hz :) not a bad HT setup he have there.

13.png
 

Thomas savage

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No one quits a well paying job unless there’s something lucrative. I’m sure Amirm loves attention. This forum is gaining in popularity. There will eventually be ads, etc. Free toys to play with. Making friends in the industry. Donations. Nobody does something for nothing. Don’t be so naive.
This account has been suspended. Nobody here has any use for these type of contributions.
 

Thomas savage

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Deleted. I just don’t like that some hinted Amirm is doing us all a favor and shouldn’t be questioned. It goes both way. This forum would not exists without its viewership. Knowledgeable people have pointed out flaws in the measurement process and it’s only fair to not brush them aside.
Definitely should be questioned as has happened here .

Not by you though, you can take your rudeness elsewhere. In a place like this it's just a unwelcome distraction.
 

Thomas savage

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I'm not closing the thread , iv no interest in shutting down debate no matter it's intensity.

I'd ask you all to be constructive and respectful in your postings , mostly that's been the case so thank you.
 

Wombat

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Why the defensiveness rather than addressing members concerns re measurement protocols?
When concerns are brushed away it can lead to frustration and immoderate posts.

There is a learning opportunity here.
 

Costas EAR

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Finally, no, the KH 80 is not a high-end speaker. It is a tiny little thing and no way would it be fit as use in a regular high-fi system let alone "high-end."
Well, from a point of view, regarding it's price, no, it is too darn cheap to be considered high end.:p:p

From another point of view, regarding high fidelity, it is a true high end nearfield speaker, imho. :cool:

It is a small nearfield monitor with a pretty small woofer, so the best distance of listening it, is at 1m, "an arm's length", i suppose the listening range is 0.5-1,5m, but not 2m, as 2m is not nearfield by definition, it is midfield.

I would suggest 0.5-1m to be the best range to listen to this fine speaker.

Subs of course and without any doubt are required. One sub for each speaker, cross at 80hz, ot even higher (90-110).


5 pieces of Neumann 80's, at the intended use, at the listening distance of 1m, with 5 pcs of 805 subs in a 5.0 desk setup to listen at multichannel SACD's while working on mastering or whatever, this is true high end..

If you want listening distance of 2m, make the same thing with Neumann 310.

If you want 3,5 m listening distance, you can use Neumann 420.


Listening distance is what you pay for. ;)
 

Juhazi

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Regarding the use of KH80 with subwoofer(s) - how do you cross them?

Response of KH80 drops like stone below 60Hz. But, to make mains and sub(s) to integrate, they shoud have smooth response slopes on both sides of xo. If subs are crossed above 100hz they shoud be doubled and positioned close to the mains.

Neumann's dsp subs obviously can do this. https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp
 

Habu

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Costas EAR

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Regarding the use of KH80 with subwoofer(s) - how do you cross them?

Response of KH80 drops like stone below 60Hz. But, to make mains and sub(s) to integrate, they shoud have smooth response slopes on both sides of xo. If subs are crossed above 100hz they shoud be doubled and positioned close to the mains.

Neumann's dsp subs obviously can do this. https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp
Neumann's subs are equipped with crossover capabilities for the speakers, and it works just fine.

As for listening distance, in my opinion and needs, it is crucial to reproduce reference level (85 dB's) with enough headroom for peaks, and any 4" woofer cannot reproduce the third octave at reference level to 3m of distance, it is a joke...

Of course i respect Neumann's pdf's, but they don't relate listening distance to reference spl level's of listening, instead they provide max spl graph's at 1% thd, so things are pretty easy to configure for your needs.

neumann_kh310_max_spl_510_2 (1).gif


Keep in mind a real life target curve, so:

1% thd means ~97 dB's at 80 Hz at 1m is all you get at the 3rd octave (80-160 Hz), do the math for 6m of distance, it is a joke... IMHO and for the spl levels i need.

And by the way, this is why you need sub's below 80Hz for 310:
(95 dB spl at 1m)

neumann_kh310_thd_510.gif


These graphs tell me that this speaker at 1m is capable of 95 dBspl at the 3rd octave, and incapable of use without sub. ;)

Of course 310 can play louder, but the sound is not at all as good as at these levels with low thd.

I also enjoy listening for short terms in much higher than good old reference levels and i think that you all do enjoy high dynamic range from the speakers, and that is a good reason to love the JBL M2 speakers or the big revel beasts. ;)

I also suppose that the higher spl capabilities (due to larger woofer and in general due to jbl way of construction) of the jbl speaker at the 3rd octave is the main reason that Amirm preferred the jbl speaker and not the Neumann.
 
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Sancus

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Regarding the use of KH80 with subwoofer(s) - how do you cross them?

Response of KH80 drops like stone below 60Hz. But, to make mains and sub(s) to integrate, they shoud have smooth response slopes on both sides of xo. If subs are crossed above 100hz they shoud be doubled and positioned close to the mains.
Well, that's their anechoic response(-10db at 50hz), not their in-room response. Not necessarily the same. Here's mine(measured a single KH80 compared to a Magnepan 1.7i):



So I think you can do 80hz or 100hz depending on your measurements. FWIW, my Denon X4000 automatically set the crossover to 60hz for the MG1.7i and 80hz for the KH80. I raised the Magnepan crossover to 80hz to help deal with the comb filtering, which is one of the reasons I want to get rid of them anyways... and before anyone asks, they're already 3ft away from the front wall and yeah it's still that bad. Room correction does help. :p
 

carlob

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I have said many pages before that this thread was going downhill, full of off-topics or discussions that should have been on a methodology thread - that way it would also be easier to find for people actually interested in the measurements methodology instead to chase random messages buried in a review thread. Also I see a couple of people really obsessed here, to the point of personal attacks and insinuations. Obsessed on details that doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Sorry to say that a better moderation could have avoided that since the beginning.

If I was the owner of this forum I would return the Klippel and say to the obsessed ones: f* you, now buy your own and stick that 0.022 dB where the sun don't shine and good luck.
 
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