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Neumann KH 80 DSP Monitor Review

Krunok

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he's saying they picked a golden sample or they tweaked the speaker before measuring it.
Oh c'mon - they are stating that 100% of their speakers are within ±0.26 dB and that they are measuring evey speaker they produce. That is a very serious statement coming from a reputable company. You can't say it is BS without solid proof.
 
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amirm

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1 dB deviation is material when it's a broad, low-Q deviation (such as a tilt).
It is not when it is in the domain where the room heavily dominates. And once again, I did not manually dial down the bass. The speaker did what it did at level of listening that a user may utilize. So if this is bad, well, that is what the speaker does.
 
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amirm

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Why such a big needless ego? Multiple members are interested in a remeasure and they have a point. KH 80 is not some throwaway speaker, it’s the first truly high end loudspeaker product measured here and it deserves better.
Ego? Nothing is about ego. I routinely make additional measurements for members. I will shortly be retesting the Schiit Freya S pre-amp.

I simply find it unacceptable that members would want to chase things in this direction. I have explained it multiple times. To ask means to not understand the limits of what measurements do in this space.

Finally, no, the KH 80 is not a high-end speaker. It is a tiny little thing and no way would it be fit as use in a regular high-fi system let alone "high-end."

We also don’t have distortion measurements. Seems like you have a preferential bias towards those Samsung speakers.
Oh? So now I am gaming the measurements in that regard? You guys get a medal for inventing reason after reason to motivate me to NOT re-test.

What do think this is? I am your slave to chase your needs and if not get there, you resort to calling my reputation into question? And I am supposed to then run and do as you say?

I can't believe the attitude here. I am done folks. If there was any chance of re-testing it, it is not there anymore. You want it tested again, hire Klippel to test it for you. They charge $1000. :(
 

Krunok

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Finally, no, the KH 80 is not a high-end speaker. It is a tiny little thing and no way would it be fit as use in a regular high-fi system let alone "high-end."
Yep, it is not. It is a near-field professional monitor with spec which says that 100% of the speakers have linearity within ±0.26 dB.

I haven't seen that with ANY "high end" home speakers, and neither have you.

Oh? So now I am gaming the measurements in that regard? You guys get a medal for inventing reason after reason to motivate me to NOT re-test.

What do think this is? I am your slave to chase your needs and if not get there, you resort to calling my reputation into question? And I am supposed to then run and do as you say?

I can't believe the attitude here. I am done folks. If there was any chance of re-testing it, it is not there anymore. You want it tested again, hire Klippel to test it for you. They charge $1000. :(
That was a dumb post from a single user which certainly doesn't represent the thoughts of the community.
 

Pio2001

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he's saying they picked a golden sample or they tweaked the speaker before measuring it.
Not at all. I don't see what's unclear...

Maybe I can try an analogy: Say that you're asking for 1 kg (or 1 pound if you're using imperial and US system) of sugar. The dealer starts pouring the sugar into the bag, and stops when his device dispays 1000.00 grams exactly, and hands over the bag with your sugar.

Then, at home, you measure the weight and find 1000.65 grams. Someone else finds 999.95 grams.

The argument given here is that is impossible that the 1000,00 reading from the dealer is a coincidence. Such a round number can happen only one time out of 100 in a +/- 0.5 grams interval. It must mean that his device is much more accurate than the two others.

Do you see the flaw in the argument ?
 

Krunok

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Not at all. I don't see what's unclear...

Maybe I can try an analogy: Say that you're asking for 1 kg (or 1 pound if you're using imperial and US system) of sugar. The dealer starts pouring the sugar into the bag, and stops when his device dispays 1000.00 grams exactly, and hands over the bag with your sugar.

Then, at home, you measure the weight and find 1000.65 grams. Someone else finds 999.95 grams.

The argument given here is that is impossible that the 1000,00 reading from the dealer is a coincidence. Such a round number can happen only one time out of 100 in a +/- 0.5 grams interval. It must mean that his device is much more accurate than the two others.

Do you see the flaw in the argument ?
Your analogy doesn't explain how they manage to have 100% of the speakers within ±0.26 dB.

And please don't tell me their claim is false without any proof of that.

P.S. On this forum you can go only with car analogies, all other analogies are perceived as childish. :D
 
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Ego? Nothing is about ego. I routinely make additional measurements for members. I will shortly be retesting the Schiit Freya S pre-amp.

I simply find it unacceptable that members would want to chase things in this direction. I have explained it multiple times. To ask means to not understand the limits of what measurements do in this space.

Finally, no, the KH 80 is not a high-end speaker. It is a tiny little thing and no way would it be fit as use in a regular high-fi system let alone "high-end."


Oh? So now I am gaming the measurements in that regard? You guys get a medal for inventing reason after reason to motivate me to NOT re-test.

What do think this is? I am your slave to chase your needs and if not get there, you resort to calling my reputation into question? And I am supposed to then run and do as you say?

I can't believe the attitude here. I am done folks. If there was any chance of re-testing it, it is not there anymore. You want it tested again, hire Klippel to test it for you. They charge $1000. :(
You seriously throwing this much of a hissy fit? Come on man.
 

edechamps

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To ask means to not understand the limits of what measurements do in this space.
You might want to explain that to @napilopez, Sound & Recording Magazine, and Neumann themselves. I'm sure they'll be very interested to learn that the only reason their measurements agree with each other is sheer luck.
 
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Not going to do. I am not going to reward bad intent. The future of what we are doing is what is at stake. I can just see the same losing the high level picture and insisting in minutia in every review.
Missing an opportunity here. I would set a bounty/bribe, $500 or whatever you feel is worth it in donations and you do one more run :) Then whoever feels so strongly can put their money towards a good cause and you don't feel as bad about wasting your time redoing a test unnecessarily.
 

badboygolf16v

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Finally, no, the KH 80 is not a high-end speaker. It is a tiny little thing and no way would it be fit as use in a regular high-fi system let alone "high-end".
Firstly, let me say I have no interest in the argument occurring regarding the measurements.

The KH80 is designed to be used with a sub. I have 2 X KH80 + 1 X KH805 and I can assure you it sounds excellent at a 2m listening distance.

This isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion of a lot of pro audio reviewers too.

So I did raise an eyebrow at this comment.

I had 2 X JBL 305P + 1 X JBL 310 prior to my Neumanns, and whilst they were good (for the price incredible) the Neumanns, in my opinion (FWIW) are more refined.
 

oivavoi

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You might want to explain that to @napilopez, Sound & Recording Magazine, and Neumann themselves. I'm sure they'll be very interested to learn that the only reason why their measurements agree with each other is sheer luck.
I haven't followed this debate closely, but I am somewhat at a loss here for why you don't want to do a simple thing like remeasuring these Neumann speakers @amirm ... :) Remember Confucius: “The green reed which bends in the wind is stronger than the mighty oak which breaks in a storm".

I don't have any stakes here at all, and I'm probably too stupid to understand the technical aspects of the debate. But what I do know is that there are already lots of bad faith actors in the hifi world who lust for nothing more than for the ASR project - and for you - to be delegtimized. Because ASR measurements shows that the emperor is naked, they wish for ASR to appear as biased and not worthy of trust. They will use everything they can find to tear ASR down. When it comes to the speaker measuring thing, they will no doubt use this episode to argue that measurements can't be trusted: "The results of ASR didn't confirm other independent measurements, and that Amir guy didn't even bother to remeasure! How can we trust him, eh?"

I think it would be a real pity if we give the bad faith actors who don't like ASR that kind of ammunition. Particularly now in the early phase of speaker measuring, I think it's worth it to take it one step at a time. As to people who argue here and who wish for remeasurement - I don't perceive them to do that in bad faith at all. Yeah, technically minded audiophile men are probably the most annoying know-it-alls on the planet, no doubt about that. But there is a difference between being annoying yet honest (which applies to many of you guys here lol), and doing things in bad faith (which applies to many of the subjectivists who want to undermine ASR).

That said, I am still eternally and extremely grateful that you and ASR have started measuring speakers at all. It's really an enormous service to the audio community.
 

badboygolf16v

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I appreciate the sentiments of oiavoi's post. But really, does anyone here care what any of the "bad faith actors" think or say about ASR.

No one should give a second thought to them.
 

oivavoi

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I appreciate the sentiments of oiavoi's post. But really, does anyone here care what any of the "bad faith actors" think or say about ASR.

No one should give a second thought to them.
Well, I care as an audio consumer, as I want the audio industry to be rational and science-based. The more doubt people are able to sow about ASR, the less impact it will have on the audio industry.

I believe the impact of ASR has grown quite a lot lately though. I want that to continue as much as possible.
 

digitalfrost

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He bought that very expensive measurement rig specifically because it was easy and fast to measure lots of speakers.

Yet he refuses to re-measure this device, even though there were was a lot of criticiscm and reasoning given, for why there might be some issues.

I don't have the knowledge to know whom to trust, but I don't understand why he refuses to prove his point by just doing it again. He was very forthcoming in the past when people questioned his results in explaining and proving why he was right, so I don't understand why he's suddenly so nazi about it.
 

Sancus

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I admit I don't really understand the reluctance to remeasure, if I'd just bought the Klippel I'd probably measure a state of the art speaker like the KH80 4 or 5 times at various output levels just to see the results and variance(if any).

That said, if Amir doesn't want to re-measure it I consider the subject closed. It's his site and his system, and people trying to nag him into doing it by repeating the same arguments over and over isn't going to produce a positive result for anybody. Personally, I would have already suspended a couple of posters in this thread based on their aggressive rhetoric.
 
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