Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[Habu]

Really considering the KH 310s (and maybe later on your complete stack). Are the 310s all they're hyped up to be?

Hi ichonderoga,

That’s not my setup as indicated in the post, I have only a pair of KH310 with one KH750.

I really like the Neumann speaker range,

- They provide all the measurements you could dream, and these seems to be true.
- Every speaker is sonically matched to another identical speaker
- You can add DSP to KH120, KH310 with KH750 DSP (Free DSP offered with the Sub)
- I really like their design and materials.
- There is a full catalog of accessories like mounting plates..
- Now they add MA1 Automatic Monitor Alignment to their line of product

I was able to upgrade and improve my system without selling or changing anything.
I can use KH120 + KH750, or KH310 + KH750 depending where I need the Sub and DSP, with any other brand I would have to sell my speakers to have the DSP version. They are really supporting their products

Sincerely yours

Habu

 

[ichonderoga]

Hi ichonderoga,

That’s not my setup as indicated in the post, I have only a pair of KH310 with one KH750.

I really like the Neumann speaker range,

- They provide all the measurements you could dream, and these seems to be true.
- Every speaker is sonically matched to another identical speaker
- You can add DSP to KH120, KH310 with KH750 DSP (Free DSP offered with the Sub)
- I really like their design and materials.
- There is a full catalog of accessories like mounting plates..
- Now they add MA1 Automatic Monitor Alignment to their line of product

I was able to upgrade and improve my system without selling or changing anything.
I can use KH120 + KH750, or KH310 + KH750 depending where I need the Sub and DSP, with any other brand I would have to sell my speakers to have the DSP version. They are really supporting their products

Sincerely yours

Habu

Ok. Man that sounds cool! So now it’s just a question of when, and not if.

 

[ernestcarl]

According to Neumman's documentation about the IMD performance, crossing over to a sub reduces the two-way's IMD levels, similar to that of a 3-way (KH310) design. May be you could try LR4 xo at 80Hz-120Hz -- higher the better.

Also, maybe you can try to compare the bass and low-mid difference before and after by using this particular track: Somewhere, Somebody -- Jennifer Warnes.

I'm almost quite certain that there is going to be a noticeable improvement with the KH120s. Although, from my own listening tests, it seems that there is still going to be a little muddling between the deep voice (parts) of the male singer and the Fender bass even after use of a sub with the KH120s.

Found the document ('measurement descriptions'), and I have spoken too soon. They do give examples, but that of a three-way system with and without a sub.

Low frequency IMD was reduced by ~10-15dB and midrange IMD was reduced by ~10dB. Nevertheless, one can deduce from this that distortion is going to be reduced quite significantly with the use of sub -- esp. the higher your xo goes. Where we probably wouldn't see as much gain would be in the midrange -- again, I'm purely guessing here, but it might be closer to half than the 10dB reduction seen with the three-way.

As for that simple bass to low-mid test track... I tried to level the playing field by equalizing the my KH120s without a sub, and so to have a frequency response similar to that of my setup with a sub (primarily added a +6dB low shelf filter). Maybe I was just tired before... since as it turns out, the difference is noteworthy, yes, very much so... but not as huge as I thought it would be. A healthier, solid weight is added plus a sense of fullness or "completeness" in the fender bass guitar that seemed to be only partly realized prior to adding the sub. I only tested at moderate listening volumes ~80-85dB. If we are talking bass heavy electronic dubstep music at very, very loud listening levels, the effect and weakness of this small two-way ported design is going to be obvious no matter what.

With a sub, distortion of the KH120s in the lowest bass region is going to trump that of the KH310 -- no surprise. But regardless, the KH310's super clean midrange driver is going to be the biggest differentiating advantage it has over any kind of conventional two-way system.

 

[thewas]

With a sub, distortion of the KH120s in the lowest bass region is going to trump that of the KH310 -- no surprise. But regardless, the KH310's super clean midrange driver is going to be the biggest differentiating advantage it has over any kind of conventional two-way system.

Exactly!

 

[HooStat]

@ernestcarl Are you using the KH750 sub? Just looking at the "real world" extension which I have wondered about.

 

[pozz]

94dB output level and -15dB gain, lowest for both.

My KH 80s are quietest at 100dB output. Can't remember my gain setting, unfortunately.

 

[ernestcarl]

@ernestcarl Are you using the KH750 sub? Just looking at the "real world" extension which I have wondered about.

Nope. Just my old Rythmik F12 sub. It cuts off early no matter what I do because of an abrupt and quite big cancellation where my listening position is at -- if one were to sit at the couch behind, the response extends down 10Hz.

 

[Mnyb]

A very subjective question to you who owns this speaker.

I’m actracted to you all saying it’s neatral detailed and clean and precise and dynamic ( so you seem to frame it ).
And amirs nice set of measurement tells a story of a very good design.

But how about listening fatigue any tendencies at all to be to “forward” and hard ? If so where to EQ if you want any speaker to back of some of that

Can it work as a home speaker at 2.4 meter distance ?

Or are you better served by kef jbl or revel at home ?

 

[yourmando]

A very subjective question to you who owns this speaker.

I’m actracted to you all saying it’s neatral detailed and clean and precise and dynamic ( so you seem to frame it ).
And amirs nice set of measurement tells a story of a very good design.

But how about listening fatigue any tendencies at all to be to “forward” and hard ? If so where to EQ if you want any speaker to back of some of that

Can it work as a home speaker at 2.4 meter distance ?

Or are you better served by kef jbl or revel at home ?

I think your question is mostly answered by the objective measurements. Nearly perfect anechoic frequency response, so should sound “accurate” and “neutral”. Certainly good enough for mixing and mastering by pros with trained ears. Low distortion, which should address should “hard” or “harsh” or “fatiguing.” Very well controlled directivity. Easy to EQ. Bass extension to 34hz, excellent for its size.

Yes, 2.4m is in its ideal range. Further should work as well in a home vs studio environment. The estimated in-room response looks good, and the reflections look good so total sound power in a room at further distances should still sound “accurate”

Whether to use Revel, Kef , or others comes down to preferences such as—preferring different looks, preferring wider directivity, or better vertical directivity, etc.

For EQ, this post has some very minor speaker EQ possibilities based on the anechoic data:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...310a-review-powered-monitor.17723/post-577348

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi,

I was reluctant at first glance to have a look at the EQ as the data was near perfect. However after looking more closely it appeared to me the the integration of the mid range was, maybe, not that “perfect”.
I understand the compromise to get the third way: increase LF bandwidth and max SPL capabilities but it does not change the fact that the DI clearly shows the directivity errors.
It might be inconsequential in near field in a mixing studio where the direct sound might be paramount but in a domestic environment, where the domain of validity of Olive score is supposed to reside, it will decrease the Predicted Preference.

Here are some thoughts I shared:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...7v-spinorama-and-eq-inside.17283/#post-560611

[...]Regarding the scoring method itself, models in general, not just in audio, are judged with two main criteria:
- Can it describe what we observe reasonably well?
- Do the predictions derived from the model hold against new observations?

The first criterium is covered in the original paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Ratings_of_Around-Ear_and_On-Ear_Headphones

I agree with you we need more data for the second criterium to be more understood.
We have some data point from the Harman team comparing different speakers with different PIR shapes and EQing targets but this not as detailed as the first paper.[...]

One may not agree (whatever that means) with the Score but this is the best we’ve got.
Nothing is preventing anyone from coming up with something different but the validation will be hard to say the least…

In the case of the KH310, the error from flatness are higher than one may think at first glance.
See the spinorama with just bass EQ (to look like the Neumann data):
View attachment 95191

Quick comparison with the KH80
View attachment 95215
NBDON = 0.34dB/20th octave on average
NBDPIR = 0.30dB/20th octave on average
SMPIR = 0.78 (closer to 1 is better, interpreted as smoothness of the PIR in the Olive paper)
Score: 6.35 / 7.76 with Sub

To be compared with the KH80 :
NBDON = 0.25dB/20th octave on average
NBDPIR = 0.22dB/20th octave on average
SMPIR = 0.86
Score: 6.04 / 8.4 with Sub
the higher score of the KH is due to the better LF response
The Score does not take into account the SPL headroom/THD.

View attachment 95214

The small one is just smoother and the sub score shows, in my opinion, that pound for pound and within its SPL capabilities, the smaller one is a better speaker.
Adding more ways on the speaker improve some parameters but also bring some other compromises, more is not always 100% better…

For the pound for pound see there:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-308p-mkii-studio-monitor-review.17338/page-13

[...]Here is the calculation I perform, which seems to match what others are doing:
PPR_LF = 12.69 - 2.49*NBD_ON - 2.99*NBD_PIR - 4.31*log10(14.5) + 2.32*SM_PIR
see there for some details:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-community-project.14929/#post-467858

This assumes:
- Frequency response 14.5Hz @-6dB. 14.5Hz is chosen so the theoretical max score is 10 although nothing prevent a system from achieving better performances and therefore the score could exceed 10; this is the first issue.
- Perfect integration whatever that might mean, which is the second issue and where I don't quite adhere to the concept.

The idea, I guess, is to compare speakers if the LF extension is literally taken out of the equation, akin the pound-for-pound rating.
To me it would make more sense to use it this way rather than thinking "if I buy a sub then I'll get the astonishing system predicted by the sub score". That is just not going to happen: sub or not the room will still determine the system LF response.[...]

Here is my take on the EQ nonetheless:
I think unless the user has a decent understanding on measurements and their interpretation it is probably better not to play with the EQ or just FYI. The final user should measure his/her own units, at least the LW.
Room integration EQ is highly recommended thought.

The raw data with corrected ER and PIR:
Score no EQ: 6.19
With Sub: 7.6

Spinorama with no EQ:

• LF response, is it temperature related or otherwise? I EQed it so that it to resemble the data published by Neumann to get it out of the way.
• HF it seems that there are tonal control that do pretty much the same job that the EQ I added…
• The midrange integration maybe related to production tolerance?

View attachment 95204

Directivity:
Better stay at tweeter within +/-10 deg of the mid point Tweeter/mid both vertically and horizontally.
View attachment 95208
View attachment 95193
EQ design:
I have generated two EQs. The APO config files are attached.

• The first one, labelled, LW is targeted at making the LW flat
• The second, labelled Score, starts with the first one and adds the score as an optimization variable.
• The EQs are designed in the context of regular stereo use i.e. domestic environment, no warranty is provided for a near field use in a studio environment although the LW might be better suited for this purpose

Score EQ LW: 6.82
with sub: 8.22

Score EQ Score: 6.98
with sub: 8.39

Code:

Neumann KH310 APO EQ LW 96000Hz
November232020-121217

Preamp: -2.3 dB

Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 29.1 Hz Gain 0 dB Q 0.9
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 89 Hz Gain 1.63 dB Q 2.21
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 707 Hz Gain 1.18 dB Q 4.87
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 1548 Hz Gain 2.32 dB Q 6.71
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 4779 Hz Gain -0.88 dB Q 8.74

Neumann KH310 APO EQ Score 96000Hz
November232020-110222

Preamp: -2.3 dB

Filter 1: ON HPQ Fc 29.4 Hz Gain 0 dB Q 0.9
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 88.4 Hz Gain 1.63 dB Q 2.21
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 700.8 Hz Gain 1.06 dB Q 4.56
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 1525 Hz Gain 2.25 dB Q 10
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 4714 Hz Gain -1.31 dB Q 5.85
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 12878 Hz Gain -0.69 dB Q 1.04

View attachment 95203
Spinorama EQ LW
View attachment 95205
Spinorama EQ Score
View attachment 95206
Zoom PIR-LW-ON
View attachment 95207
Regression - Tonal the EQ score makes the On flat
View attachment 95200
Radar no EQ vs EQ score
Some improvements
View attachment 95201
The rest of the plots are attached in particular Horizontal directivity with positive and negative angles separated.
View attachment 95195

Thanks! I tried this today with the KH310+KH750 DSP and this is what i got in my 14 qm room (additional room-EQ applied). Changes are subtle, but i think i like it. Pity i don´t have time to listen to something other than pink noise most of the time...

Green: Estimated in room response KH310 only for reference, measured by Amir.
Red: Average of MMM-measurements (L + sub) + (R + Sub) with room EQ and settings similar to those you provided with the "score" settings (as close as it gets with the KH 750DSP).
Black: Deactivated additional EQ settings above 300Hz.

Var smoothing, listening distance: 1,6m

My new MA-1 measurement microphone has been shipped to me and i expect it to arrive on monday. I wonder what results i will get from the automatic alignment.

Edit: That is the current cave-setup:

 

[badboygolf16v]

I'm hoping for a KH310 D DSP. It's been alluded to by some posters, but I'm guessing that's wishful thinking.

I'm wondering if the DSP features for the KH310 built into the KH750 mean that Neumann won't see the need to offer a KH310 DSP?

Anyone know anything concrete?

I've got a KH80/KH805 setup and I don't want to replace the KH805 with KH750 as I consider it an inferior subwoofer, and I don't want to lose the linear phase crossover of the KH80s.

 

[yourmando]

So I called customer service at Pro Audio Star where I purchased my KH310. The guy says I can do replacement or return, but he also suggested that I tried a power strip/surge protector before I initiate the return process. I don't know much about electricity and I am not sure whether that's a valid option. My house is old though so it could have some electric problem, but that doesn't affect my KH120 so I am puzzled.

Any thoughts on my potential electricity problem?

I can compare hiss between the KH 310 and KH 120 for you when I get them next week. Please remind me if I forget.

I can confirm that my brand new kh 310 has no hiss. @Χ Ξ Σ did you ever get your issue resolved?

 

[ernestcarl]

I've got a KH80/KH805 setup and I don't want to replace the KH805 with KH750 as I consider it an inferior subwoofer, and I don't want to lose the linear phase crossover of the KH80s.

It is an inferior sub in SPL output capability, yes. Honestly, you should not be worried too much about losing anything! The KH80 will continue to be linear phase within the area that matters the most: the midrange & esp. the treble frequencies. It is extremely debatable if it even matters in the bass at all. You just need to make sure your xo filters and delays are set optimally. Of course, a sealed sub will have less group delay. There is no denying that basic fact.

 

[bigguyca]

So I called customer service at Pro Audio Star where I purchased my KH310. The guy says I can do replacement or return, but he also suggested that I tried a power strip/surge protector before I initiate the return process. I don't know much about electricity and I am not sure whether that's a valid option. My house is old though so it could have some electric problem, but that doesn't affect my KH120 so I am puzzled.

Any thoughts on my potential electricity problem?

Not sure what all you have tried, but anyway:

1) Try disconnecting the signal ground using the switch on the back of the KH310.

2) Disconnect one of your KH120's and connect the KH310 in place of the KH120, both the signal input and the power cord.

3) While not good (that is safe for long term use,) try using a cheater plug on the power cord from the AH310 into the wall outlet.

3 Prong to 2 Prong Grounding Adapter Wall Outlet Converter, JACKYLED 2 Prong Power Adapter Fireproof Material 200℃ Resistant Heavy Duty for Household, Electrical, Indoor Use Only, Black, 10 Pack - - Amazon.com

 

[Χ Ξ Σ]

The speakers are good. The problem resides in the electricity in my house that was built in the '70s. I plugged in a speaker in my friend's house across the street, which was built in the '90s, and there was absolutely no buzzing from the mid dome.

I have tried lifting the ground on the speakers and using a groundless power cord. Neither works. I then installed an extra grounding rod. The buzzing noise is still there. I suspect the power line in the wall is old, but fixing that would be more costly than the speakers themselves. Since I do plan to remodel the house in the future, I am not going to fix the electricity now just for these speakers.

I ordered an isolation transformer and it will arrive tomorrow. This is a shot in the dark. If that doesn't work, I will return the KH310 and get something less sensitive to bad electricity.

 

[richard12511]

y to compare the bass and low-mid difference before and after by using this particular track: Somewhere, Somebody -- Jennifer Warnes.

Any other songs you can think to test this with? That song is not available on any streaming service (Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz) I have, nor could I find it online for purchase.

*Edit: Youtube to the rescue. I can kinda see what you mean testing on my Nest Audio.

 

[kindleman]

Hi all, Im about to buy a second hand pair of kh310 almost 4 years old for €2200 , I am not able to collect them but I will send my brother to do the transaction , he will be able to listen to them and check them out properly in the studio but has no knowledge about monitor speakers. WHat would you suggest I ask him to do ? is there anything in particular to pay attention to ? any common issue ?
Also anybody that would advise to spend 900/1000euros more and get a new pair instead ? any bad experiences with them ?
.. one more thing my room is 350 x 430 cm (290 height), treated, how much difference would adding a 750 make ?
thanks a lot!!!! happy mixing!!!!

 

[Mawclaw]

Hi all, Im about to buy a second hand pair of kh310 almost 4 years old for €2200 , I am not able to collect them but I will send my brother to do the transaction , he will be able to listen to them and check them out properly in the studio but has no knowledge about monitor speakers. WHat would you suggest I ask him to do ? is there anything in particular to pay attention to ? any common issue ?
Also anybody that would advise to spend 900/1000euros more and get a new pair instead ? any bad experiences with them ?
.. one more thing my room is 350 x 430 cm (290 height), treated, how much difference would adding a 750 make ?
thanks a lot!!!! happy mixing!!!!

I would just listen to each driver and make sure it is working. These are pretty bulletproof and idk if I have heard of anyone having issues.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

.. one more thing my room is 350 x 430 cm (290 height), treated, how much difference would adding a 750 make ?
thanks a lot!!!! happy mixing!!!!

I don´t know but i can show you what difference it made in my room (300 x 470 x 255 cm): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.13540/page-3#post-408953

 

[Vintage57]

I don´t know but i can show you what difference it made in my room (300 x 470 x 255 cm): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.13540/page-3#post-408953

Not wanting to hijack the thread, can you share your setup process to the AAVA C20's. I'm impressed with the effect on the bottom octave.
Thanks