Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[LETRA]

I am still not sure i understand. Are you saying that the prior amp/preamp you used as an input for your KH310's was inferior quality? ... and that the quality of the KH310's show this difference?

I will try to explain myself a little better, I am not a native English speaker. My previous setup was: Topping DX9 Pre Mode > Neumann KH310A. And for the passive speakers I was using Topping DX9 DAC Mode > Topping Pre 90 > Purifi Boxem Arthur 4216/E2 > Pasive Speakers Seas A26 DIY.

Then I changed the chain. And now I use: Topping DX9 DAC Mode > Topping Pre 90 > Neumann KH310A. And the improvement was very noticeable, while I didn't notice any difference in the other setup: Topping DX9 Pre Mode > Purifi Boxem Arthur 4216/E2 > Pasive Speakers Seas A26 DIY.

This means that (in my subjective assessment) it was perhaps more crucial to use the Topping Pre90 with the Neumann KH310A than with the Purifi amplifier and passive speakers. It is possible that the internal amplification of the KH310s appreciates the use of a quality preamp more than the Purifi Boxem Arthur passive speaker amplifier does. But this is just an idea. I simply wanted to encourage people who use the KH310A connected directly to a DAC to give a good preamp a try.

 

[Chr1]

Adding a preamp, any preamp, will degrade the sound quality from the Neumanns, not improve it.

 

[mikessi]

LETRA --​

Can you please describe the sound of the KH310? In any way that you can, in any way that makes sense to you. I am interested in your subjective perceptions. We already have the measurements, but that is often not enough. I have not seen any subjective impressions about this speaker. If you can compare it to any well-known loudspeaker or perhaps a recording that you are very familiar with, that would be helpful. Ignore the objectives here who might complain -- I too depend very much on measurements but they rarely complete the whole picture.

 

[LETRA]

LETRA --​

Can you please describe the sound of the KH310? In any way that you can, in any way that makes sense to you. I am interested in your subjective perceptions. We already have the measurements, but that is often not enough. I have not seen any subjective impressions about this speaker. If you can compare it to any well-known loudspeaker or perhaps a recording that you are very familiar with, that would be helpful. Ignore the objectives here who might complain -- I too depend very much on measurements but they rarely complete the whole picture.

Well, I would say as I listen to them at 01:30 AM Spanish time, that they are coherent with all my sound chain and with all the devices I have bought, tending to minimize noise and coloration. I think the sound is very transparent, very differentiable in each of the frequencies, with the instruments not stepping on each other, with lots of details. From such a close listening point they remind me of listening with headphones but with much more space and air. There are very precise, surgical frequencies. They sound, or so I try, as close as possible to the original recording. In other words, there is no such thing as a flat, boring sound, but the nuance depends on the original recording. I would say it's a scanner. I don't add things to a sound engineer's mix. I try to make the reproduction faithful.

In any case the placement of my KH310s is not perfect, the room is not perfect and I have had to use the rear panel controls to adjust bass and low mid, plus input gain and output level. I have done what I could without DSP, because the Dirac measurements did not give good results. My KH310s sound good but they sure aren't the best sounding in the world. Here in the thread there are hundreds of users with acoustic treatment in the rooms and perfect distances to the walls that will sound much better.

 

[unpluggged]

I simply wanted to encourage people who use the KH310A connected directly to a DAC to give a good preamp a try.

And I simply wanted to encourage people to check that they test in equal conditions before making such statements. First and foremost, that the output levels are matched in both cases (this is what I doubt about the most in your description), and the speakers' settings are not changed between the takes. Also it's better to test it blindly (i.e. having another person to make the switching and not knowing which setup is playing at any given moment).

 

[markstein]

Well, I would say as I listen to them at 01:30 AM Spanish time, that they are coherent with all my sound chain and with all the devices I have bought, tending to minimize noise and coloration. I think the sound is very transparent, very differentiable in each of the frequencies, with the instruments not stepping on each other, with lots of details. From such a close listening point they remind me of listening with headphones but with much more space and air. There are very precise, surgical frequencies. They sound, or so I try, as close as possible to the original recording. In other words, there is no such thing as a flat, boring sound, but the nuance depends on the original recording. I would say it's a scanner. I don't add things to a sound engineer's mix. I try to make the reproduction faithful.

In any case the placement of my KH310s is not perfect, the room is not perfect and I have had to use the rear panel controls to adjust bass and low mid, plus input gain and output level. I have done what I could without DSP, because the Dirac measurements did not give good results. My KH310s sound good but they sure aren't the best sounding in the world. Here in the thread there are hundreds of users with acoustic treatment in the rooms and perfect distances to the walls that will sound much better.

I would recommend getting a microphone and learn how to perform appropriate EQ to mitigate room modes and maybe peaks due to SBIR. The internal EQ (DIP switches) will not give you the best results.

I personally also find the KH310 highs too hot, so I switch them to at least -1,5dB. However, I am listening in far field in an untreated living room.

Two subwoofers are definitely a good addition when listening in far field (and a lkttle bit louder), you may want to consider the KH750 with MA-1, solves as well the EQ topic.

 

[LETRA]

I would recommend getting a microphone and learn how to perform appropriate EQ to mitigate room modes and maybe peaks due to SBIR. The internal EQ (DIP switches) will not give you the best results.

I personally also find the KH310 highs too hot, so I switch them to at least -1,5dB. However, I am listening in far field in an untreated living room.

Two subwoofers are definitely a good addition when listening in far field (and a lkttle bit louder), you may want to consider the KH750 with MA-1, solves as well the EQ topic.

Yes, the best thing would be to buy a subwoofer to do the Neumann DSP tuning, but I don't have the space to put it. About the treble, it's the only parameter I haven't touched. I like incisive treble, as in the Hifiman HE1000 Stealth headphones I use.

 

[markstein]

Regarding treble: yes, this is a really subjective topic. I personally like it not to hear the treble "sticking out" or "on top" of the music. YMMV of course.

 

[teashea]

It should not be subjective. This is the what this forum is all about. Subjectivity is uncertain and unreliable and is subject to psychological / perceptual issues. The fact that someone like uneven frequency response or certain types of distortion says nothing about the quality of the monitors. It is the measurements that count - that determine whether the frequency response is flat and if there is low distortion.

 

[markstein]

It is subjective to a degree.

Measured anechoic FR is ruler flat.

Measured FR at my listening position using FDW 15 cycles shows a high frequency rise of about 2dB > approx. 5kHz. I adjust "to taste" somewhere between -1,5...-2,5dB @6.5kHz Q=0.7 depending on music material. You can also use the dip switch of the speaker, fits quite well.

 

[PristineSound]

Adding a preamp, any preamp, will degrade the sound quality from the Neumanns, not improve it.

Can you provide the scientific explaination?

 

[Arindal]

I personally also find the KH310 highs too hot, so I switch them to at least -1,5dB. However, I am listening in far field in an untreated living room.

This observation might be an indication for too much of treble reflections in the room. Usually this phenomenon does not occur in the highest treble bands, but around 3-6K because of the tweeter´s dispersion. If that is the case, lowering the treble level by the help of a shelve filter by -1.5dB would not really help.

Does the problem persist in another room, with proper treble absorbtion or if you radically lower the listening distance between speaker and listener, like half of the distance?

It is the measurements that count - that determine whether the frequency response is flat and if there is low distortion.

In the best of all possible worlds, it should not, I agree. To achieve flat frequency response of the reflections and reverb in a room, on top of linear direct sound (which are all three equally important IMHO), is not as easy as it sound. To come even close to that ideal, you would need constant directivity speakers, proper room treatment and ideal placement of all acoustically relevant elements, like in a studio control room. That would be ideal, but it is not really realistic under home conditions, and seemingly not even popular among people who claim to strive for neutrality.

I have been working with the predecessors of KH310A which are excellent nearfield speakers, but it is impossible to predict how they will behave in a more lively environment being placed too far from the listener. They are simply not made for this.

 

[unpluggged]

Can you provide the scientific explaination?

Any active component added to the signal chain adds noise and distortion. No need to be a scientist to understand this.

 

[PristineSound]

Any active component added to the signal chain adds noise and distortion. No need to be a scientist to understand this.

You are wrong.

I'm this video John Siau explains why you get better performance when the Benchmark preamp is added instead of connectingb a DAC directly to the power amp.

John, who is a very decorated EE, actually explains the science.

 

[teashea]

You are wrong.

I'm this video John Siau explains why you get better performance when the Benchmark preamp is added instead of connecting directly or the power amp.

Audioholics is not a reliable source. They promote a variety of snake oil ---- including a variety of subjective evaluations using meaningless terms that are untied to reality. Check out their devotion to silly interconnects and speaker cables with magical properties......

The objective, scientific measurements of the KH310's are what count. These monitors do not need any pre-coloration.

 

[PristineSound]

Audioholics is not a reliable source. They promote a variety of snake oil ---- including a variety of subjective evaluations using meaningless terms that are untied to reality. Check out their devotion to silly interconnects and speaker cables with magical properties......

The objective, scientific measurements of the KH310's are what count. These monitors do not need any pre-coloration.

1) Audioholics is a reliable source, Gene does not promote any snake oil, at least knowingly. And if you are going to make such accusations, please provide evidence.

2) The scientific explanation is being done by John Siau, the VP of engineering at Benchmark.

 

[teashea]

1) Audioholics is a reliable source, Gene does not promote any snake oil, at least knowingly. And if you are going to make such accusations, please provide evidence.

2) The scientific explanation is being done by John Siau, the VP of engineering at Benchmark.

Any coloration will negatively affect the KH310's. What do you think the benefit is of this pre colorization? Does it reduce distortion?

 

[PristineSound]

Any coloration will negatively affect the KH310's. What do you think the benefit is of this pre colorization? Does it reduce distortion?

Is this reply a rebuttal to the science explain by John in this video? If so, please elaborate such said "coloration"


Or is this just some random rebuttal? If so, please elaborate such said coloration.

 

[teashea]

"Improvement" would necessarily mean colorization. Why would putting an unnecessary preamp in the audio chain be better than a KH310 without the preamp?

 

[markstein]

It should not be subjective. This is the what this forum is all about. Subjectivity is uncertain and unreliable and is subject to psychological / perceptual issues. The fact that someone like uneven frequency response or certain types of distortion says nothing about the quality of the monitors. It is the measurements that count - that determine whether the frequency response is flat and if there is low distortion.

Additionally to what I wrote before: look at the estimated in-room-response of KH310 (optimized for near field) vs KH420 (optimized for mid field) on spinorama.

KH420 clearly has less energy in high frequencies.

Btw this can also be observed when comparing on axis FR between both speakers.

I am using KH310 in an untreated living room at >3m listening distance, and a slight HF shelf works really well for me. I see nothing wrong with that approach.