Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[Muddywaters]

My kazoo music collection doesn't need a sub...

 

[teashea]

Why then does Neumann make studio subwoofers that are designed for nearfield usage (as you like to emphasize) and go down to 16 Hz anechoic?

The only monitor they make that go that low are the KH420's. They also make two subs that go down to cover the lowest octave. There are a few instances where the lower octave is used. I have a KH750 sub that goes down to 20 KH but I find it is rarely needed. There are a few times, however where I do use it.

 

[boxerfan88]

Rarely is not zero. Rarely could mean 1/decade, 1/year, 1/month, daily, hourly, etc…

Speaker system covering the bottom octave well is beneficial for sure. Helps to hear the mix better in a studio or enjoy the music better at home. That’s why my KH310 is integrated with a sub, and the integrated system performs way way better than the KH310 standalone.

 

[teashea]

Rarely is not zero. Rarely could mean 1/decade, 1/year, 1/month, daily, hourly, etc…

Speaker system covering the bottom octave well is beneficial for sure. Helps to hear the mix better in a studio or enjoy the music better at home. That’s why my KH310 is integrated with a sub, and the integrated system performs way way better than the KH310 standalone.

I have a KH750 that is integrated with my KH310's. I find that the KH750 rarely contributes anything meaningful. There is simply, rarely any musical content in the lowest octave. When there is no content below 35 Hz, the KH750 contributes nothing.

 

[Chr1]

You keep saying this. Clearly you don't listen to organ music or electronic music. As numerous people keep telling you, there is is a lot of sub 40Hz content in this.
Just because you don't come across it, does not mean it doesn't exist.
If you listened to it, I would bet you would deem subwoofer use fairly important. Especially at higher volumes, the 310s woofer will struggle without them.

 

[levimax]

I have a KH750 that is integrated with my KH310's. I find that the KH750 rarely contributes anything meaningful. There is simply, rarely any musical content in the lowest octave. When there is no content below 35 Hz, the KH750 contributes nothing.

As good as the KH310's are, as pointed out previously, below 100 Hz at high volume they start to fall apart (high distortion) and their SPL capability is limited. You can see it on Amir's measurements and Newman's own measurements. I have mine crossed relatively high (120 Hz) with 2 very large co-located subs which can put out clean high SPL (110 dB+) from 20Hz to over 500 Hz. Using 2 colocated subs allows me to keep the stereo bass and relieving the KH310 of work below 100 Hz adds 10 dB+ of headroom and massively lowers LF distortion and extends LF response. I will agree that for a lot of music playing at low levels the KH 310's by themselves are fine, but once you turn up the volume, even if the content is not particularly bass heavy, the KH 310's with the subs sounds better. If the content does have LF below 40 Hz then there is no comparison at loud listening levels. The thing about the KH750 is it really doesn't have much output down low and has very high distortion (93 db max output @ 50% THD @ 20 Hz ) https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/post-1756741 so it really isn't a good test to hear what properly reproduced last octave sounds like.

 

[bachatero]

The thing about the KH750 is it really doesn't have much output down low and has very high distortion (93 db max output @ 50% THD @ 20 Hz ) https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/post-1756741 so it really isn't a good test to hear what properly reproduced last octave sounds like.

What are some good alternatives to the KH750?

 

[teashea]

What are some good alternatives to the KH750?

Please remember that the KH750 is designed to be used with Neumann monitors, all of which (except the KH420) have designs optimized for nearfield use. For that purpose the KH750 is superb. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. If someone wants to waste money and use Neumann monitors for far field use, the KH750 would not be very good. It is not meant for that purpose.

Of course some people want a sub that produces exaggerated bass. For that purpose the KH750 would be awful.

ie - One is not advised to use their Aston Martin Vanquish to haul lumber from Home Depot.

 

[Chr1]

Jeez, that's the weirdest thing you've said yet.
(And you have said some weird things already for sure.)

I don't remember anyone here suggesting "exaggerated" bass. Many like more capable subs than the KH750 however.

I guess that you just like to argue, regardless of what others point out.

 

[levimax]

What are some good alternatives to the KH750?

If you really want to hear what the last octave sounds like unfortunately small and practical heavily DSP'd subs won't cut it, the part most people overlook is that at 20 Hz the threshold of hearing is ~76 dB so you really need high SPL down low if you want to hear it. Something like this would work https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/subwoofers/products/tv21-ipal-m

 

[levimax]

Please remember that the KH750 is designed to be used with Neumann monitors, all of which (except the KH420) have designs optimized for nearfield use. For that purpose the KH750 is superb. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. If someone wants to waste money and use Neumann monitors for far field use, the KH750 would not be very good. It is not meant for that purpose.

Of course some people want a sub that produces exaggerated bass. For that purpose the KH750 would be awful.

ie - One is not advised to use their Aston Martin Vanquish to haul lumber from Home Depot.

I use my KH310's with subs at 2 meters which is in the middle of their recommended listening distance. You keep saying "nearfiled" but the KH 310's are more "mid-field".

So what do you think creates more "exaggerated bass" as small DSP'd sub with 50% THD @ 20 Hz or a large properly engineered sub with 1% THD @ 20 Hz?

 

[markstein]

I have a KH750 that is integrated with my KH310's. I find that the KH750 rarely contributes anything meaningful. There is simply, rarely any musical content in the lowest octave. When there is no content below 35 Hz, the KH750 contributes nothing.

Interesting to see them not angled towards the listening position. You miss a lot of high frequency energy...

 

[unpluggged]

I have a KH750 that is integrated with my KH310's. I find that the KH750 rarely contributes anything meaningful. There is simply, rarely any musical content in the lowest octave. When there is no content below 35 Hz, the KH750 contributes nothing.

1) How does it not contribute anything when the crossover is at 80 Hz (and you say they are integrated)?
2) Haven't you thought that this might be due to an improper placement of the sub in your room?

 

[boxerfan88]

I have a KH750 that is integrated with my KH310's. I find that the KH750 rarely contributes anything meaningful.

Guess you’ve wasted your money.

There is simply, rarely any musical content in the lowest octave.

Yes, we heard your position loud and clear. You are fully entitled to your opinions.

When there is no content below 35 Hz, the KH750 contributes nothing.

Is your KH750 damaged? It isn’t working between 35-80Hz? Maybe you should send it for checkup or repair.

 

[Karmacoma]

Why then does Neumann make studio subwoofers that are designed for nearfield usage (as you like to emphasize) and go down to 16 Hz anechoic?

The biggest organs go down to 16Hz. And it's a treat. It's 99% of the time not usefull but when it is you're in for a ride

 

[kolestonin]

I understand that spl and headroom is not a concern when using these on a 30sq meters living room environment with a listening distance bigger than the one manufacturer sets as ideal.

What makes them less adequate for such usage is drivers integration and imaging coherence. Meaning that these drivers are aligned for phase coherence at ~1.5–2.5 meters, so at 3+ meters coherence starts to fall off due to vertical driver spacing. Transitions between mid/tweeter become less focused, especially off-axis and Imaging sharpness, center image density, and phantom sources get blurrier.

The only ways we have to mitigate above 'losses' are positioning, room correction and room treatment.

And if we try to make a non scientific quantification of the above we can say:
Speakers perform at their 100% at 2m.
At their 80% at 3m.
At their 90% at 3m with room correction(ex: dirac)
At their 95% with room correction + room treatment.

Would you agree with above thoughts?

Is anyone using them in a big space with a listening distance >3m and would like to share his experience?

 

[markstein]

I do not agree to most of what you are writing above.

- larger listening distance in a domestic room simply means a larger indirect/direct sound ratio
- indirect/direct sound ratio changes the perception of soundstage
- I personally don't like "room correction" (Dirac, Acourate, etc.) but "room mode management" by using multiple subwoofers and PEQ below Schroeder frequency.

I am listening to my KH310 plus subs at >3m in my untreated unsymmetrical living room and enjoying their performance a lot...

 

[dfuller]

What makes them less adequate for such usage is drivers integration and imaging coherence. Meaning that these drivers are aligned for phase coherence at ~1.5–2.5 meters, so at 3+ meters coherence starts to fall off due to vertical driver spacing.

Nah - the minimum distance is about driver integration. Maximum is more SPL based.

 

[kolestonin]

Thanks for the feedback.
It’s good to hear they’re working well for some of you even at >3m.

Speakers are optimized for near to midfield distances and this is a documented fact in Neumann’s own literature though. And I’m just trying to make sense of the distance recommendations Neumann gives. If they’re not that critical, I wonder why they specifically call out an optimal range. Maybe it’s just a conservative spec?

I’m not doubting they can work further back nor saying that they fall apart at 3m+. Just trying to understand if there’s a meaningful difference in how things like imaging or coherence hold up as you move beyond manufacturer's suggested range.

Curious if anyone’s actually A/B tested at different distances?

 

[unpluggged]

I wonder why they specifically call out an optimal range. Maybe it’s just a conservative spec?

This mainly has to do with common SPLs used in studio workflow, based on the speaker's output levels. In home environment you are free to use them at any distance you find suitable (beyond the nearfield).