Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[temps]

Thank you Amir!

I've read dozens, upon dozens of reviews and user feedback on these monitors, and I have yet to hear a bad, or even okay or remotely dissatisfied review, impression or use-case. Now there's another one I can add to the list.

I've been eyeing the Dynaudio LYD-48 for quite some time and plan on purchasing it, but honestly, I've wanted this more but simply can't afford it. Maybe one day...

Thanks for the wonderful review Amir, and all your hard work.

Cheers.

Fwiw originally I wanted 310s but decided to just get something right away, which meant cutting my budget ... I got LYD 7s which I really like and think are one of the best deals out there for monitors. but they aren't "forever speakers" so I wish I had saved up and gotten 310s, or Footprint 02s although it's impossible to find good data on Barefoot speakers so buying them unheard wasn't really an option

 

[Pearljam5000]

Fwiw originally I wanted 310s but decided to just get something right away, which meant cutting my budget ... I got LYD 7s which I really like and think are one of the best deals out there for monitors. but they aren't "forever speakers" so I wish I had saved up and gotten 310s, or Footprint 02s although it's impossible to find good data on Barefoot speakers so buying them unheard wasn't really an option

Don't know about Barefoot...
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1210681-barefoot-mm27-drive-units.html

 

[q3cpma]

Don't know about Barefoot...
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1210681-barefoot-mm27-drive-units.html

Genelec also uses cheap Peerless stuff in their monitors. 100€ is actually a good spending, consider that this $30 woofer is more or less what's used in the 8030C and KH120A:
https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-830860-5-1-4-ppb-cone-hds-woofer--264-1080
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/peerless-by-tymphany-hds-p830860.html

As always, implementation is key and can often compensate for the raw material's flaws.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Genelec also uses cheap Peerless stuff in their monitors. 100€ is actually a good spending, consider that this $30 woofer is more or less what's used in the 8030C and KH120A:
https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-830860-5-1-4-ppb-cone-hds-woofer--264-1080
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/peerless-by-tymphany-hds-p830860.html

Yeah but the Barefoots cost $10K

 

[q3cpma]

Yeah but the Barefoots cost $10K

You're right, that's a bit expensive. Still, this looks like a very good driver; but the HDS looks better in the datasheet, less sudden beaming.

 

[temps]

Don't know about Barefoot...
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1210681-barefoot-mm27-drive-units.html

Their top end offerings do seem hugely overpriced, but the Footprints seem pretty fair. But no data, not even a simple FR chart.. so forget it.

For studio monitors I generally want to use something conventional too, that consumers would have. So done tweeters edged out the ring radiator from the Footprint or ribbons or AMTs like Adam, Hedd or Unity

 

[q3cpma]

Their top end offerings do seem hugely overpriced, but the Footprints seem pretty fair. But no data, not even a simple FR chart.. so forget it.

For studio monitors I generally want to use something conventional too, that consumers would have. So done tweeters edged out the ring radiator from the Footprint or ribbons or AMTs like Adam, Hedd or Unity

That's not true, they're in the manual. Here's the Footprint 01, for example:

Nothing about distorsion, though.

 

[temps]

That's not true, they're in the manual. Here's the Footprint 01, for example:

Nothing about distorsion, though.

Oh wow. How unobservant of me.. doesn't look so good tho, does it? 2k looks like serious directivity error

 

[q3cpma]

Oh wow. How unobservant of me.. doesn't look so good tho, does it? 2k looks like serious directivity error

Only their Micromain 27 doesn't look too bad, but even then, it's not match for Genelec or Neumann's stuff.

 

[richard12511]

Well, there are already a couple of posts of other members that have heard both and all had the same experiences, it's up to you to either not believe any of them or try to experience them yourself and maybe change your mind.

While I've never heard the KH310, I do own the JBL 308p MKII. A month ago or so I used my parents as blind listening test participants to help me decide which speakers I wanted to use in my home office. Main contenders were Revel M105 and Genelec 8030c, but I threw the 308p in as third candidate as that's what's recommended by Toole. 4 subwoofers were used to equalize the low end. Overall order of preference was 8030c > M105 > 308p. The gap between the M105 and the 308p was larger than the gap between the 8030c and the M105. 308p did have the -2 treble switched engaged as this was back before Amir measured them, and back when I thought they measured like the 305p. My best guess is that huge distortion spike right in the worse place it could be(most sensitive portion of the midrange) is likely the cause of them being less preferred.

Based on that, I have a hard time believing the 308p would compete well with the KH310. I know I'd certainly rather own the KH310 than either the 8030c or M105 . My belief is that the Olive score is probably overrating the 308p a bit(due to not considering distortion), while at the same time underrating the KH310 a bit. My guess is there'd likely be a much bigger gap in a level matched blind test than the Olive score would suggest, and when then factoring in the KH310's much superior dynamic capabilities, I'm certain it's a much better overall loudspeaker.

I would argue that the 308p is the better value speaker, but that's a different argument, and it has an advantage there, being the cheaper of the two.

 

[Robbo99999]

While I've never heard the KH310, I do own the JBL 308p MKII. A month ago or so I used my parents as blind listening test participants to help me decide which speakers I wanted to use in my home office. Main contenders were Revel M105 and Genelec 8030c, but I threw the 308p in as third candidate as that's what's recommended by Toole. 4 subwoofers were used to equalize the low end. Overall order of preference was 8030c > M105 > 308p. The gap between the M105 and the 308p was larger than the gap between the 8030c and the M105. 308p did have the -2 treble switched engaged as this was back before Amir measured them, and back when I thought they measured like the 305p. My best guess is that huge distortion spike right in the worse place it could be(most sensitive portion of the midrange) is likely the cause of them being less preferred.

Based on that, I have a hard time believing the 308p would compete well with the KH310. I know I'd certainly rather own the KH310 than either the 8030c or M105 . My belief is that the Olive score is probably overrating the 308p a bit(due to not considering distortion), while at the same time underrating the KH310 a bit. My guess is there'd likely be a much bigger gap in a level matched blind test than the Olive score would suggest, and when then factoring in the KH310's much superior dynamic capabilities, I'm certain it's a much better overall loudspeaker.

I would argue that the 308p is the better value speaker, but that's a different argument, and it has an advantage there, being the cheaper of the two.

I don't think my 308p Mkii has the huge distortion spike at 2kHz, so maybe it's unit to unit variation, or maybe it's because I've got my speakers placed on foam pads (who knows?), added a last graph at following post showing distortion as percentage on y-axis which is same presentation as Amir's graphs:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-mkii-studio-monitor-review.17338/post-576570
That is after an "Anechoic Listening Windows HF Trim -2dB EQ" though, if that has any impact (fixed crossover for instance).

 

[richard12511]

I don't think my 308p Mkii has the huge distortion spike at 2kHz, so maybe it's unit to unit variation, or maybe it's because I've got my speakers placed on foam pads (who knows?), added a last graph at following post showing distortion as percentage on y-axis:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-mkii-studio-monitor-review.17338/post-576570

I don't have enough knowledge to know how to compare in room home distortion measurements to Klippel NFS generated distortion measurements. My guess is that they're likely not very comparable, but I really don't know.

 

[Robbo99999]

I don't have enough knowledge to know how to compare in room home distortion measurements to Klippel NFS generated distortion measurements. My guess is that they're likely not very comparable, but I really don't know.

I'm not sure either, but you'd think what you measure in-room is what you'd be hearing though. I put an EDIT in my post I linked with a mention at Amir, so I hope he can answer me - I'd like to know what relevance my measurements have, and I'm sure it would be useful for the community to know if there is unit to unit variation, or are we barking up the wrong tree in terms of my measurements being invalid, either way I think there's a lot to be gained/learned about the 308p and in general by the answer to that question.

 

[LTig]

I'm not sure either, but you'd think what you measure in-room is what you'd be hearing though.

Nope, it's not that simple. As I understand current research the FR of the first wave front (on axis) defines SQ and smooth FR of the reflected sound (off axis) is required for excellent SQ. An on axis FR with a dip which is filled by a peak in the off axis FR may give smooth in room FR but does not sound as good as a flat on axis FR and smooth off axis FR giving similar smooth in room FR.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Will try my best spinorama is based per 10º steps 36 times diretivities on X axis (horizontal) and 36 times diretivities on Y axis (vertical), we need to notice and understand whenever a horizontal directivity sign say - (minus) we at left side and whenever a horizontal directivity sign say + (plus) we at right side, for verticals whenever a directivity sign say - (minus) relate to floor and + (plus) sign relate to cieling, listening window curve (direct sound quality) in spinorama plot is a average of on axis plus -10º/+10º verticals and -10º/+10º/-20º/+20º/-30º/+30º horizontals, for most systems there is more or less diretivity trouble in verticals because transducers is stacked and have their physical center to center distances.

Because the paired listening windows curves mean something in relation to woofer is because its involved up in midrange area and atypical situated side by side to upper mid and tweeter, throwed in KH 80 (exemplarish objective beauty) below because its a good comparison to see that for left verse right side horizontals for KH 80 is coherent where the blue/green/brown horizontal pairs for KH 310 show non symetri and bit worse at right side..

View attachment 95082

Thank you very much for the explanation! I understand the graphs show some asymmetries and i see why the right side of the left speaker seems a bit worse. Just to clarify: Suggesting i am always sitting centered in the sweet spot and have the monitors angled towards me - if the left speaker is on the left side this would mean that early reflections from the left wall would be a bit more controlled? So this would argue for placing the left speaker on the left side? Or did you mean something else?

 

[thewas]

While I've never heard the KH310, I do own the JBL 308p MKII. A month ago or so I used my parents as blind listening test participants to help me decide which speakers I wanted to use in my home office. Main contenders were Revel M105 and Genelec 8030c, but I threw the 308p in as third candidate as that's what's recommended by Toole. 4 subwoofers were used to equalize the low end. Overall order of preference was 8030c > M105 > 308p. The gap between the M105 and the 308p was larger than the gap between the 8030c and the M105. 308p did have the -2 treble switched engaged as this was back before Amir measured them, and back when I thought they measured like the 305p. My best guess is that huge distortion spike right in the worse place it could be(most sensitive portion of the midrange) is likely the cause of them being less preferred.

Based on that, I have a hard time believing the 308p would compete well with the KH310. I know I'd certainly rather own the KH310 than either the 8030c or M105 . My belief is that the Olive score is probably overrating the 308p a bit(due to not considering distortion), while at the same time underrating the KH310 a bit. My guess is there'd likely be a much bigger gap in a level matched blind test than the Olive score would suggest, and when then factoring in the KH310's much superior dynamic capabilities, I'm certain it's a much better overall loudspeaker.

Thank you for sharing your experiences which I fully believe.

I would argue that the 308p is the better value speaker, but that's a different argument, and it has an advantage there, being the cheaper of the two.

Of course loudspeakers like the JBL 30x, Kalis etc. are the better value for money and actually some of the best money spent when you get into audio, that's why I also have recommend them to many people with a limited budget and even own a pair since the first gen came out although I didn't need them as I just find it fascinating (even today after so many years) how far you can get sound quality wise for the money of few supermarket week buys. But this is also normal and called the Pareto principle, that you can get to the 80% of the result with 20% of the budget, but the remaining top 20% are always the disproportional expensive ones.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Thank you for sharing your experiences which I fully believe.


Of course loudspeakers like the JBL 30x, Kalis etc. are the better value for money and actually some of the best money spent when you get into audio, that's why I also have recommend them to many people with a limited budget and even own a pair since the first gen came out although I didn't need them as I just find it fascinating (even today after so many years) how far you can get sound quality wise for the money of few supermarket week buys. But this is also normal and called the Pareto principle, that you can get to the 80% of the result with 20% of the budget, but the remaining top 20% are always the disproportional expensive ones.

The last 20% are the difference between amazing and nice.

 

[napilopez]

That's not true, they're in the manual. Here's the Footprint 01, for example:

Nothing about distorsion, though.

Oh wow. How unobservant of me.. doesn't look so good tho, does it? 2k looks like serious directivity error

I'm a broken record, but I would once again like to make sure scaling is being paid attention to. Barefoot uses an extremely tall apect ratio/scaling. 72 db to 96 db, and 20Hz to 50kHz.

This...

at the scale of the KH310 spin is this review, looks like this:

Note that it's hard to tell exactly which curve is which at the 2kish peak, as in the above image they are not separated by color. Still, even if we choose the "worst-case" scenario, with the highest peaking above 2kHz, the results are comparable to the KH310, which has a directivity peak lower. Red is KH310, blue is barefoot:

I wish Barefoot provided heatmap style polar maps or, better yet, straight up frequency graphs, but from the above graphs there is no reason to conclude that the FootPrint 01 is any worse than the comparably priced KH310.

This is also one of the "worst" performers I've seen from barefoot. The rest of them seem to perform more like this (Micromain 45):

Minimain 12:

They're all roughly this flat except for the 26, which looks a bit more like the Footprint 01.

Unfortunately there don't seem to be measurements for the Footprint 02. Curious how that one performs as it is the cheapest model.

Either way, it seems clear barefoot tries to get as close to flat on-axis as possible with their measurement equipment, as one would assume is the priority in a monitoring setup, and directivity is kept reasonably controlled and wide. The lack of a waveguide will likely lead to slightly less even but wider directivity, at which point you're just dealing with a matter of preference and room matching again.

Would love to see one measured extensively though.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Don't know about Barefoot...
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1210681-barefoot-mm27-drive-units.html

Come on @Pearljam5000, haven’t we discussed this at length before? That driver is an excellent one. For an active implementation, a better choice than the ATC dome we were comparing it to in the other thread.

Apparently every time Barefoot is mentioned on ASR @napilopez is called upon to swoop in and correct misinformation regarding their published measurements and I then need to swoop in and correct misinformation regarding their selection of drivers...

 

[andreasmaaan]

As always, implementation is key and can often compensate for the raw material's flaws.

Not to mention that in this case the raw materials (drivers) in question are excellent.