Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[thewas]

I have heard both the JBL 308p Mk2 and of course the Neumann KH310 and KH120. I know someone who owns the JBL 308p Mk3 and Neumann KH120 and yes the idea that the JBL even comes close is simply laughable to anyone who has heard them.

Thank you!!!

As said its not like when comparing two loudspeakers where one has significant tonality problems which make further comparisons not necessary, but when tonality and directivity are both on a high level we concentrate on other secondary issues and qualities-

 

[MJP389]

I have an incredibly newb question, please don't laugh at me. I've had my KH310's for a while now. I'm a mixer and use them daily for all mixing duties. In my space, in terms of placement I've gone back and forth with woofers in vs woofers out. I like the tighter stereo image I get with the woofers out/tweeters in placement, but I was wondering in general how this effects the sound in terms of its frequency response. Not looking for specific numbers, just wanted to ask the more experienced speaker lovers if this is something I should be staying away from (positioning with tweeters in/woofers out.)

 

[MarsianC#]

JBL 308p Mk3

Spoiler?

 

[thewas]

Hi

I haven't heard those speakers but would like to caution against falling in the trap of prejudices. DSP is a mean to an end that can/could be achieved by other means. The absence of DSP from the Neumann do not impact their performance . All the contrary, it is exemplar.
I am in the camp of active speakers, I also am fully conscious that the jury is out on the reliability of Class D and some DSP systems. Class AB , OTOH, is mature and possibly more reliable than the others (perhaps due to their simplicity).

We are a tough crowd but this speaker, a superlative one by any metrics deserve our attention and our money. At $2200 each they aren't cheap but they're active and fully competitive or superior to what can be achieved at similar price point. Let's not automatically reject these for a the lack of DSP ... Coupled with a pair of good $500 subs and appropriate bass-DSP, these could be the foundation of a World-class audio system.

Exactly, especially for repair-ability and spares in the future dedicated DSP chips and SMD boards can be disadvantageous compared to classic op amps which were produced in millions for decades and are easier to swap.
Which is something that we see for example in current high tech TVs where the boards usually are not repaired anymore as the classic past tube TVs but just fully swapped or trashed.

 

[flipflop]

I like the tighter stereo image I get with the woofers out/tweeters in placement, but I was wondering in general how this effects the sound in terms of its frequency response. Not looking for specific numbers, just wanted to ask the more experienced speaker lovers if this is something I should be staying away from (positioning with tweeters in/woofers out.)

The directivity graphs posted by @MZKM in post #2 show how the speaker performs off-axis at different angles.

If you turn the speaker upside down, my guess is the treble response would be affected by a magnitude of about ±0.5 dB.
The bass and midrange would be unaffected by the horizontal shift of the woofer while the tweeter would be subjected to a vertical shift that's somewhere between the reference axis (brown) and 10° graph (red):

Completely negligible if you ask me.

 

[BYRTT]

...In my space, in terms of placement I've gone back and forth with woofers in vs woofers out. I like the tighter stereo image I get with the woofers out/tweeters in placement, but I was wondering in general how this effects the sound in terms of its frequency response. Not looking for specific numbers, just wanted to ask the more experienced speaker lovers if this is something I should be staying away from (positioning with tweeters in/woofers out.)

In below mini view you can notice induvidual pairs on same X/Y ratio as spinorama plot of the listening window directivity patterns relative to on axis seat (normalized), have best mixing there ..

 

[Sprint]

I have heard both the JBL 308p Mk2 and of course the Neumann KH310 and KH120. I know someone who owns the JBL 308p Mk3 and Neumann KH120 and yes the idea that the JBL even comes close is simply laughable to anyone who has heard them.

Completey agree. I heard in 2 dealer shops - Genelec 8351A, 8050, KH310, 8030, KH120 and JBL LSR305p. Source was same from my iPhone Apple Music and via a switch played the same music in these speakers. Though 8030, KH120 are sounding similar / closer, 305p was far away. My order of preference was Genelec 8351a > Genelec 8050 > Neumann KH310 > Genelec 8030 > Neumann KH120 > JBL LSR305P. If I have to include Adam S3V which I heard in a different place, I will squeeze it in between 8351 and 8050.

 

[Robbo99999]

Well, you can ask anyone who owns both and I know quite many who have their 30x in their secondary system.

Sure, but we can remember if we hear some non-cleanness and resonances at demanding music or signals.

Also I am not talking about tonality which can be EQed on any loudspeaker with smooth directivity as desired and which is only accounted in the Harman score but other kind of distortions.

You would see then also that SPL that counts for a distortion measurement is the average one in the mids and treble (for example around 82dB in your second plot) and there is also some additional gain due to room boundaries at that distance where direct sound doesn't dominate.

Well, your initial post that started this discussion

as well your later ones give the impression you really think they won't make a difference in a direct comparison as long as they are not listened loudly too, because they have a similar score.

Sais the one who claims I haven't heard and cannot judge the 308 MK II just because I don't own them (as I also unfortunately don't own a pair of KH310).

I felt a bit fiery earlier, so I'm gonna leave it now, but I do stand by my points and arguments I made, and at the same time I'm still not convinced by your arguments for all the points (& holes in your arguments) that I've already mentioned.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

In below mini view you can notice induvidual pairs on same X/Y ratio as spinorama plot of the listening window directivity patterns relative to on axis seat (normalized), have best mixing there ..

View attachment 95067

Could you please explain what this means for the question?

I'm asking myself the same question and I'm currently experimenting with having the woofer pointing outwards (for practical reasons, because then I have less problems with the speakers being blocked by the screen). But unfortunately I don't really understand what these diagrams mean.

 

[thewas]

I felt a bit fiery earlier, so I'm gonna leave it now, but I do stand by my points and arguments I made, and at the same time I'm still not convinced by your arguments for all the points I've already mentioned.

Well, there are already a couple of posts of other members that have heard both and all had the same experiences, it's up to you to either not believe any of them or try to experience them yourself and maybe change your mind.

 

[MJP389]

If you turn the speaker upside down, my guess is the treble response would be affected by a magnitude of about ±0.5 dB.
The bass and midrange would be unaffected by the horizontal shift of the woofer while the tweeter would be subjected to a vertical shift

Oh I didn't mean flipping the speakers upside down, I meant using the right speaker as the left and left as the right. Tweeters would still be top.

BYRTT - thank you for this. I've been an audio nerd for almost 20 years but still learning what these graphs mean. I'm trying to learn more about how to dissect these graph results. Like DjBonoBobo I wouldn't mind a quick little explanation how this relates to using the left speaker as right/right as left or vice versa.

 

[Robbo99999]

Well, there are already a couple of posts of other members that have heard both and all had the same experiences, it's up to you to either not believe any of them or try to experience them yourself and maybe change your mind.

Yeah

 

[PresbyByrd]

PSA: $3200 for customer return:

https://www.proaudiostar.com/2x-neumann-kh-310-reference-monitors-left-and-right.html

 

[AudioSceptic]

The bass driver uses an identical basket casting as seen on the Tymphany/Peerless HDS-830869. Tymphany would be the obvious first port of call to OEM a driver. Tymphany also make a 3" dome mid, one that physically looks very very close, so basing the one in this speaker on that design would be easy. However the mounting doesn't match. (Nor does the mounting match the Peerless India dome mid.) But if I were a betting man, I would be betting the entire set of drivers is Tymphany sourced.

Thanks, that is convincing evidence.

 

[tmtomh]

Is there an active we've seen at this price point - $4400/pr - that matches this performance? (Not saying there isn't - just asking since the Genelec 8341s are $6k/pr, yes?)

 

[infinitesymphony]

Is there an active we've seen at this price point - $4400/pr - that matches this performance? (Not saying there isn't - just asking since the Genelec 8341s are $6k/pr, yes?)

Maybe Adam S2V if you're able to EQ it, but those are still missing out on a fair amount of bass. We haven't seen how close the Neumann KH120 might get.

 

[Sprint]

Is there an active we've seen at this price point - $4400/pr - that matches this performance? (Not saying there isn't - just asking since the Genelec 8341s are $6k/pr, yes?)

Adam S3V and Genelec 8350 (as per soundandrecording, they did even better than 8351a on measurements). Adam S3V was rated very high in German magazines Stereo and AudioTest. I have listened to both S3V and 8050 (not 8350) and I preferred both compared to KH310.

Then you have HEDD Type 20 and 30 in the same price point as Neumann with ice power amps. They should also be measuring and sounding in the same league as 310.

 

[BYRTT]

Could you please explain what this means for the question?

I'm asking myself the same question and I'm currently experimenting with having the woofer pointing outwards (for practical reasons, because then I have less problems with the speakers being blocked by the screen). But unfortunately I don't really understand what these diagrams mean.

Oh I didn't mean flipping the speakers upside down, I meant using the right speaker as the left and left as the right. Tweeters would still be top.

BYRTT - thank you for this. I've been an audio nerd for almost 20 years but still learning what these graphs mean. I'm trying to learn more about how to dissect these graph results. Like DjBonoBobo I wouldn't mind a quick little explanation how this relates to using the left speaker as right/right as left or vice versa.

Will try my best spinorama is based per 10º steps 36 times diretivities on X axis (horizontal) and 36 times diretivities on Y axis (vertical), we need to notice and understand whenever a horizontal directivity sign say - (minus) we at left side and whenever a horizontal directivity sign say + (plus) we at right side, for verticals whenever a directivity sign say - (minus) relate to floor and + (plus) sign relate to cieling, listening window curve (direct sound quality) in spinorama plot is a average of on axis plus -10º/+10º verticals and -10º/+10º/-20º/+20º/-30º/+30º horizontals, for most systems there is more or less diretivity trouble in verticals because transducers is stacked and have their physical center to center distances.

Because the paired listening windows curves mean something in relation to woofer is because its involved up in midrange area and atypical situated side by side to upper mid and tweeter, throwed in KH 80 (exemplarish objective beauty) below because its a good comparison to see that for left verse right side horizontals for KH 80 is coherent where the blue/green/brown horizontal pairs for KH 310 show non symetri and bit worse at right side..

 

[VenVile]

Thank you Amir!

I've read dozens, upon dozens of reviews and user feedback on these monitors, and I have yet to hear a bad, or even okay or remotely dissatisfied review, impression or use-case. Now there's another one I can add to the list.

I've been eyeing the Dynaudio LYD-48 for quite some time and plan on purchasing it, but honestly, I've wanted this more but simply can't afford it. Maybe one day...

Thanks for the wonderful review Amir, and all your hard work.

Cheers.

 

[Xyrium]

Thank you Amir!

I've read dozens, upon dozens of reviews and user feedback on these monitors, and I have yet to hear a bad, or even okay or remotely dissatisfied review, impression or use-case. Now there's another one I can add to the list.

I've been eyeing the Dynaudio LYD-48 for quite some time and plan on purchasing it, but honestly, I've wanted this more but simply can't afford it. Maybe one day...

Thanks for the wonderful review Amir, and all your hard work.

Cheers.

The 48 does appear to be a good value in 3 ways. Perhaps also look at the Barefoot stuff, the Footprint 02 is in that range I believe.

Whatever you get, I'd be curious about your impressions, and details about the space you're using them in (dimension, treatment, etc.). Good luck in your decision!