Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[Francis Vaughan]

In all seriousness a pissing match between speakers like this is just wasted bandwidth. What is clear is that there is need for a proper listening test comparing these speakers, and some other important designs. I'm sure Amir has a hit list of speakes that he has tested and wants to perform controlled listening tests with, once the pestilence is gone. The LSR 305 MkII would have to be my top vote for inclusion. It is an affordable high value speaker than just about everyone has a role for somewhere. Something of a universal candle. (I bought a pair for my workdesk at home after Amir's tests, for just this reason.) 100 speakers tested so far. Anone stop to think that this now exceeds Olive's database used for his score? And with more modern speaker designs. There is more science to be done. More than a few of us will bet that distortion will play a larger role than before. Very possibly because the dominant ills of older designs have now been fixed. But until the experiments are done, nobody knows.

 

[echopraxia]

The KH120 and the KH420 have no hiss. I’m going to go out on a limb and say the KH310 don’t

Yeah I can confirm, the KH310s have no hiss (same as the KH120). My only complaint with their electronics is that it has no auto sleep feature, so those class AB amps are constantly venting a little bit of warmth via the rear heat sink if you leave it on all the time.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Yes, but that also doesn't say say who manufacturers it for them.

Are we ruling out the possibility that they make it themselves?

 

[echopraxia]

... and seeing @amirm's face when he compares it with his Salon 2.

I’ve compared KH310s to Genelec 8351B’s and 8351B’s to Salon2’s, so I can attempt to predict how that comparison might go.

IMO - Unless the KH420 have extremely wide dispersion like the Salon2’s, the Salon2’s will likely still have an advantage for some kinds of music (e.g. I find the Salon2’s the best I’ve heard for natural unamplified instruments, e.g. classical jazz etc).

 

[Pearljam5000]

I’ve compared KH310s to Genelec 8351B’s and 8351B’s to Salon2’s, so I can attempt to predict how that comparison might go.

IMO - Unless the KH420 have extremely wide dispersion like the Salon2’s, the Salon2’s will likely still have an advantage for some kinds of music (e.g. I find the Salon2’s the best I’ve heard for natural unamplified instruments, e.g. classical jazz etc).

Can you share your thoughts on 8351B vs KH310? Thanks.
I'm considering both and the KH310 costs almost half than the 8351B.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

Are we ruling out the possibility that they make it themselves?

The bass driver uses an identical basket casting as seen on the Tymphany/Peerless HDS-830869. Tymphany would be the obvious first port of call to OEM a driver. Tymphany also make a 3" dome mid, one that physically looks very very close, so basing the one in this speaker on that design would be easy. However the mounting doesn't match. (Nor does the mounting match the Peerless India dome mid.) But if I were a betting man, I would be betting the entire set of drivers is Tymphany sourced.

 

[echopraxia]

Can you share your thoughts on 8351B vs KH310? Thanks.
I'm considering both and the KH310 costs almost half than the 8351B.

In terms of clean bass power, I find the KH310 and 8351B are on par. The KH310 will actually allow you to push it a bit louder (higher distortion) before the limiter circuit kicks in, whereas the 8351B’s digital protection ensures what you are hearing is never audibly distorted (or at least not significantly).

The sound quality of the 8351B is noticeably superior (but probably not 2x, but it’s always hard to put a number on these things), especially when calibrated. However the KH310 actually happened to have a better natural in-room response than the 8351B’s in my small home office room for some reason. In a larger room, the 8351B natural frequency response sounded better than the KH310. In a large room, the KH310 still sounded good but the tonal balance isn’t nearly as consistent and perfectly balanced no matter where you are in the room like the Genelec coaxials are. When calibrated, the 8351B sound better in every room, and they excel at everything from extreme near field to far field. The 8351B is quite a bit better and way more versatile speaker IMO but I would say the KH310 get impressively close for the price for midfield applications. But do keep in mind it is much less versatile for a variety of reasons (asymmetrical pairs, horizontal orientation only, shines in mid field but IMO less so near and far, etc).

That said, IMO the KH310s are probably the best speakers of their size and price range. I don’t know of any similarly impressive 3-way out there of this compactness and power and quality for a similar price. BTW I compared the KH310s against Revel F206’s a while ago and I would describe the KH310’s superiority as almost “comical” in magnitude — they’re that amazing.

Here is a power stress test distortion measurement of the KH310 right on the edge of where the limiter kicks in:

Unfortunately this is an old screenshot and I failed to capture the vertical axis for some reason. But my notes say that peak at 50hz has reached 105-110db. This is out of a single KH310 placed on the floor, measured about a meter away.

P.P.S. Looks like I actually have the REW files for this! I will get a better screenshot with the labeled vertical axis tomorrow.

 

[q3cpma]

Can you share your thoughts on 8351B vs KH310? Thanks.
I'm considering both and the KH310 costs almost half than the 8351B.

Even if that question isn't for me:
* The Ones are perfect coaxials, one of the best theoretical layout (with CBT type line arrays) while the KH310 has a layout compromised for compactness producing a strange directivity and elevated power response at 1 kHz. In the nearfield, I have doubts about differences due to that, but midfield is another story.
* The KH310A is sealed, which means high LF distorsion, even though said LF distorsion isn't very audible. Good porting is better, but I guess it was simply not possible seeing its cabinet size and woofer TS parameters; and Neumann wants their ports on the front, where there is definitely not enough place on the KH310A.
* Ignoring the potential benefits of DSP based crossover and functionalities like auto standby, GLM is a major selling point, and the equivalent Dirac setup is probably very expensive, though there are probably some alternatives.

Personally, I wouldn't consider Neumann's analogue stuff right now, as the probability for a replacement in the coming years is high (hope it's not wishful thinking).


PS: I really want to see Amir review one of the 8351Bs that seem quite popular with the big wallet sporting user base, as we lacked detailed distorsion measurements for the 8341A

 

[Pearljam5000]

In terms of clean bass power, I find the KH310 and 8351B are on par. The KH310 will actually allow you to push it a bit louder (higher distortion) before the limiter circuit kicks in, whereas the 8351B’s digital protection ensures what you are hearing is never audibly distorted (or at least not significantly).

The sound quality of the 8351B is noticeably superior (but probably not 2x, but it’s always hard to put a number on these things), especially when calibrated. However the KH310 actually happened to have a better natural in-room response than the 8351B’s in my small home office room for some reason. In a larger room, the 8351B natural frequency response sounded better than the KH310. In a large room, the KH310 still sounded good but the tonal balance isn’t nearly as consistent and perfectly balanced no matter where you are in the room like the Genelec coaxials are. When calibrated, the 8351B sound better in every room, and they excel at everything from extreme near field to far field. The 8351B is quite a bit better and way more versatile speaker IMO but I would say the KH310 get impressively close for the price for midfield applications. But do keep in mind it is much less versatile for a variety of reasons (asymmetrical pairs, horizontal orientation only, shines in mid field but IMO less so near and far, etc).

That said, IMO the KH310s are probably the best speakers of their size and price range. I don’t know of any similarly impressive 3-way out there of this compactness and power and quality for a similar price. BTW I compared the KH310s against Revel F206’s a while ago and I would describe the KH310’s superiority as almost “comical” in magnitude — they’re that amazing.

Here is a power stress test distortion measurement of the KH310 right on the edge of where the limiter kicks in:

View attachment 95015

Unfortunately this is an old screenshot and I failed to capture the vertical axis for some reason. But my notes say that peak at 50hz has reached 105-110db. This is out of a single KH310 placed on the floor, measured about a meter away.

P.P.S. Looks like I actually have the REW files for this! I will get a better screenshot with the labeled vertical axis tomorrow.

Amazing info, thanks

 

[Pearljam5000]

Even if that question isn't for me:
* The Ones are perfect coaxials, one of the best theoretical layout (with CBT type line arrays) while the KH310 has a layout compromised for compactness producing a strange directivity and elevated power response at 1 kHz. In the nearfield, I have doubts about differences due to that, but midfield is another story.
* The KH310A is sealed, which means high LF distorsion, even though said LF distorsion isn't very audible. Good porting is better, but I guess it was simply not possible seeing its cabinet size and woofer TS parameters; and Neumann wants their port on the front, where there is definitely not enough space on the KH310A.
* Ignoring the potential benefits of DSP based crossover and functionalities like auto standby, GLM is a major selling point, and the equivalent Diract setup is probably very expensive, though there are probably some alternatives.

Personally, I wouldn't consider Neumann's analogue stuff right now, as the probability for a replacement in the coming years is high (hope it's not wishful thinking).

Thanks very helpful.
I'm sure that the Genelecs are better, i just wish they cost like the KH310 lol, but if you want the best of the best then you have to pay i guess

 

[TimVG]

Thanks very helpful.
I'm sure that the Genelecs are better, i just wish they cost like the KH310 lol, but if you want the best of the best then you have to pay i guess

Just curious, but is this a stereo or surround setup you're planning?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Just curious, but is this a stereo or surround setup you're planning?

Stereo.

 

[TimVG]

Stereo.

I'd try and get the Neumann, Genelec and if possible the GGNTKT M1 I mentioned before together in your room when the time comes if your budget can stretch that far for a short trial period.
They're all very good speakers, and they're all expensive, so if I were you I'd just go all the way and leave nothing to chance. I mean, why leave yourself wondering? A mono test would suffice, so you'd only need one of each

 

[q3cpma]

That said, IMO the KH310s are probably the best speakers of their size and price range. I don’t know of any similarly impressive 3-way out there of this compactness and power and quality for a similar price. BTW I compared the KH310s against Revel F206’s a while ago and I would describe the KH310’s superiority as almost “comical” in magnitude — they’re that amazing.

As someone aptly said, the GGNTKT is probably its direct competitor. Distorsion is similar though the M1 is better in the midbass (no H3 increase at 300 Hz) but worse in LF headroom/extension.

 

[thewas]

facepalm your own arguments man, impossible to compare first gen LSR 305 to second gen 308p Mkii - totally facepalm moment, completely invalidates your listening tests vs my proposal.

Again, I have listened to the 308 many times as a friend of mine has them as TV loudspeakers whereas his main loudspeakers were till recently the KH420 (same mid and tweeter like the KH310) and now the Geithain 921K and he just laughed when I told him someone thinks they would sound so similarly good that in a blind test it would be a tough choice.
Also I had written I owned till recently the Kali IN-8 which is a step further on the LP8 and 308 and are all designed by the same person.

EDIT: as a related aside, I've just done some of my own measurements of distortion on my JBL 308p Mkii speakers and I think they're showing significantly less distortion than the samples Amir measured unless I'm interpreting my measurements wrongly.

In room measurements at a large distance of both loudspeakers are unfortunately not good for distortion detection, better is to measure them closely at the corrected level of course which would be more than 100 dB. Also how did you calibrate your SPL?

The sound quality of the 8351B is noticeably superior (but probably not 2x, but it’s always hard to put a number on these things), especially when calibrated.

This cannot be as like we know all loudspeakers with similar Harman ranking sound the same good.

 

[Robbo99999]

Again, I have listened to the 308 many times as a friend of mine has them as TV loudspeakers whereas his main loudspeakers were till recently the KH420 (same mid and tweeter like the KH310) and now the Geithain 921K and he just laughed when I told him you think they would sound so similar that in blindtest it would be a tough choice.
Also I had written I owned till recently the Kali IN-8 which is a step further on the LP8 and 308 and are all designed by the same person.

In room measurements at a large distance of both loudspeakers are unfortunately not good for distortion detection, better is to measure them closely at the corrected level of course which would be more than 100 dB. Also how did you calibrate your SPL?

This cannot be as like we know all loudspeakers with similar Harman ranking sound the same good.

Fortunately, I don't mind if people laugh at me, especially if I don't think their viewpoint is solid! I'll believe you more when you said you did blind listening tests of the speaker reviewed in this article vs the JBL 308p Mkii with both speakers placed roughly in the same position and sound source activated between the two different sets at a flick of a switch - because we can't really remember the detail of how something really sounds beyond a few seconds when making comparisons. (You'd also need to listen to the 308p Mkii with the HF Trim Switch at -2dB, because that's what I'm basing my proposal/hypothesis on - it makes a significant/noticeable difference in both listening & measurement). Personally I already don't believe any of your assertions when you previously tried to pass off listening tests of previous gen LSR 305 vs Neuman when I was talking about current gen 308p Mkii vs Neumann.....it's laughable that you even tried to pass off (mislead) that LSR 305 was anything similar to 308p Mkii...you have no leg to stand on re your logic or rigour/integrity going by past recent posts.

My SPL is calibrated in as much as I'm using a UMIK with the relevant calibration file that comes with each individual UMIK unit. Also in relation to the fact I've measured my listening/measuring position distance at being exactly 2 metres (2 speakers playing simultaneously & toed in and angled facing me directly).....and by the fact that REW measured & labelled the frequency sweeps at the SPL's I mentioned.

(I also didn't say that speakers with the same Harman Ranking sounded as good - you should read my posts more carefully or instead stop trying to play cheap games....specifically read this following post of mine again in the section I wrote in brackets https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iew-powered-monitor.17723/page-12#post-576459).
Gain some integrity or reading comprehension.)

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I haven't heard those speakers but would like to caution against falling in the trap of prejudices. DSP is a mean to an end that can/could be achieved by other means. The absence of DSP from the Neumann do not impact their performance . All the contrary, it is exemplar.
I am in the camp of active speakers, I also am fully conscious that the jury is out on the reliability of Class D and some DSP systems. Class AB , OTOH, is mature and possibly more reliable than the others (perhaps due to their simplicity).

We are a tough crowd but this speaker, a superlative one by any metrics deserve our attention and our money. At $2200 each they aren't cheap but they're active and fully competitive or superior to what can be achieved at similar price point. Let's not automatically reject these for a the lack of DSP ... Coupled with a pair of good $500 subs and appropriate bass-DSP, these could be the foundation of a World-class audio system.

 

[thewas]

Are we ruling out the possibility that they make it themselves?

I strongly doubt they would set up a driver production line just for one driver.

 

[echopraxia]

Fortunately, I don't mind if people laugh at me, especially if I don't think their viewpoint is solid! I'll believe you more when you said you did blind listening tests of the speaker reviewed in this article vs the JBL 308p Mkii with both speakers placed roughly in the same position and sound source activated between the two different sets at a flick of a switch - because we can't really remember the detail of how something really sounds beyond a few seconds when making comparisons. (You'd also need to listen to the 308p Mkii with the HF Trim Switch at -2dB, because that's what I'm basing my proposal/hypothesis on - it makes a significant/noticeable difference in both listening & measurement). Personally I already don't believe any of your assertions when you previously tried to pass off listening tests of previous gen LSR 305 vs Neuman when I was talking about current gen 308p Mkii vs Neumann.....it's laughable that you even tried to pass off (mislead) that LSR 305 was anything similar to 308p Mkii...you have no leg to stand on re your logic or rigour/integrity going by past recent posts.

My SPL is calibrated in as much as I'm using a UMIK with the relevant calibration file that comes with each individual UMIK unit. Also in relation to the fact I've measured my listening/measuring position distance at being exactly 2 metres (2 speakers playing simultaneously & toed in and angled facing me directly).....and by the fact that REW measured & labelled the frequency sweeps at the SPL's I mentioned.

(I also didn't say that speakers with the same Harman Ranking sounded as good - you should read my posts more carefully or instead stop trying to play cheap games....specifically read this following post of mine again in the section I wrote in brackets https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iew-powered-monitor.17723/page-12#post-576459).
Gain some integrity or reading comprehension.)

I have heard both the JBL 308p Mk2 and of course the Neumann KH310 and KH120. I know someone who owns the JBL 308p Mk3 and Neumann KH120 and yes the idea that the JBL even comes close is simply laughable to anyone who has heard them.

 

[thewas]

Fortunately, I don't mind if people laugh at me, especially if I don't think their viewpoint is solid!

Well, you can ask anyone who owns both and I know quite many who have their 30x in their secondary system.

I'll believe you more when you said you did blind listening tests of the speaker reviewed in this article vs the JBL 308p Mkii with both speakers placed roughly in the same position and sound source activated between the two different sets at a flick of a switch - because we can't really remember the detail of how something really sounds beyond a few seconds when making comparisons.

Sure, but we can remember if we hear some non-cleanness and resonances at demanding music or signals.

You'd also need to listen to the 308p Mkii with the HF Trim Switch at -2dB, because that's what I'm basing my proposal/hypothesis on - it makes a significant/noticeable difference in both listening & measurement

Also I am not talking about tonality which can be EQed on any loudspeaker with smooth directivity as desired and which is only accounted in the Harman score but other kind of distortions.

My SPL is calibrated in as much as I'm using a UMIK with the relevant calibration file that comes with each individual UMIK unit. Also in relation to the fact I've measured my listening/measuring position distance at being exactly 2 metres (2 speakers playing simultaneously & toed in and angled facing me directly).....and by the fact that REW measured the labelled the frequency sweeps at the SPL's I mentioned.

You would see then also that SPL that counts for a distortion measurement is the average one in the mids and treble (for example around 82dB in your second plot) and there is also some additional gain due to room boundaries at that distance where direct sound doesn't dominate.

(I also didn't say that speakers with the same Harman Ranking sounded as good - you should read my posts more carefully or instead stop trying to play cheap games....specifically read this following post of mine again in the section I wrote in brackets https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iew-powered-monitor.17723/page-12#post-576459).

Well, your initial post that started this discussion

Well, this is one nice speaker from Neumann, expensive, but hey! (My JBL 308p is cheaper, and only 0.19 worse Preference Score, but yes distortion measurments!).

as well your later ones give the impression you really think they won't make a difference in a direct comparison as long as they are not listened loudly too, because they have a similar score.

Gain some integrity or reading comprehension.)

Sais the one who claims I haven't heard and cannot judge the 308 MK II just because I don't own them (as I also unfortunately don't own a pair of KH310).