Neumann KH 310A Review (Powered Monitor)

[richard12511]

Besides the connectivity options, I wonder how subs from studio companies compare to say a Rythmik.

How do Neumann subs compare to Genelec subs? I've honestly never looked at Neumann subwoofers. If they're similar, then I'd say they're likely not competitive with the best ID subs from a price/performance perspective. For example, just one of my RS2 subwoofers out performs both of my 7370a subwoofers combined, despite being $500 less than an individual 7370a.

However, from a size/performance perspective, I'd say they may better than the ID subs, especially when you consider that they're only working with 400 watts(instead of 4000 in the RS2). The amount of output they get from a single 12 inch driver and just 400 watts is insane . I have a few 12" Infinity subs in another room and I was comparing them with the 7370s today, and it's no contest, the 7370s smoke the R12s. I'm guessing this insane size/performance has a lot to do with the spiral port design. It's kinda like a cinnamon roll, if I understand correctly, which allows them to really increase the length of the port without increasing its overall size very much.

 

[StefaanE]

The two are not really comparable. DSP, as it's employed by most manufacturers who use it, simply implements a high-pass filter and voltage limiting to protect the woofer from over-excursion/over-heating.

In more sophisticated implementations, DSP may also be employed to create a voltage/frequency dependent limiter or high-pass filter. Implemented in this way, it allows for maximum bass extension at low SPLs, and maximum output (with less bass extension) at high SPLs.

However, DSP solutions like this all differ from servo control and motional feedback in the sense that they do not employ real-time feedback (instead, they are based on known/measured characteristics/parameters of the driver).

In theory (and maybe already in practice?), a system could be designed that employed a combination of these methods.

Did that answer the question? Or am I telling you what you already know, lol?

Actually, I know very little about DSP and how it’s used in active speakers, and MFB dates from my misspent youth , so the explanation is most welcome. I wonder why MFB wasn’t widely adopted, it looks nice on paper and a demo I heard at a HiFi show in Amsterdam was most convincing. But somehow, it’s only recently that powered speakers are making a comeback, but using DSP instead of MFB.
When I set out to buy new speakers for my 65th birthday I had my sights firmly set on traditional brands (B&W, KEF, Wharfedale etc.) and traditional passive speakers. Active speakers were a real discovery, and my experience with the Nuberts I ended up buying has been very positive. As they can do low-frequency room correction, I surmise they have a fairly sophisticated DSP implementation.

 

[richard12511]

I have a chart labeled “Amir‘s Rating”, where I plot all those that got a lounging (3) or a golf/soccer (4) panther.

Here it is currently:
View attachment 94890

So, the outdoor Revel speaker is the only real anomaly. Though the Wharfedale 220 getting a 4/4 was surprising seeing the Spin, but Amir did state it could get very loud, something the better measuring Andrew Jones Pioneer bookshelf (3/4) could not for instance.

As for the F328Be, don’t forget that Amir is going to remeasure as he has since further fine tuned the NFS.

Revel M55XC seems to be the only major outlier(maybe Revel F328Be too?).

 

[andreasmaaan]

Actually, I know very little about DSP and how it’s used in active speakers, and MFB dates from my misspent youth , so the explanation is most welcome. I wonder why MFB wasn’t widely adopted, it looks nice on paper and a demo I heard at a HiFi show in Amsterdam was most convincing. But somehow, it’s only recently that powered speakers are making a comeback, but using DSP instead of MFB.
When I set out to buy new speakers for my 65th birthday I had my sights firmly set on traditional brands (B&W, KEF, Wharfedale etc.) and traditional passive speakers. Active speakers were a real discovery, and my experience with the Nuberts I ended up buying has been very positive. As they can do low-frequency room correction, I surmise they have a fairly sophisticated DSP implementation.

Glad to hear it helped

I've actually heard those famous Phillips MFB speakers, a friend of mine has them in his studio. Not so impressed tbh, although that's down to the design of the speaker rather than the MFB ofc.

As to why MFB never hugely caught on, I'm not actually sure. Given the prevalence of servo control in subwoofers today, my assumption is that servo control is cheaper, more effective, and/or more reliable. But I honestly don't know. As to why many companies don't bother with any kind of feedback system, I presume this is simply because using DSP to limit excursion/heating is significantly cheaper and easier.

 

[richard12511]

Although the M2 drivers and waveguides are good, so not too excessive DSP is needed, see figure 2:
https://www.audiopro.de/medias/item/16109/jbl_m2_soundandrecording_1214.pdf

For some reason I was thinking Floyd Toole had said something along the lines of "the M2 would have a terrible frequency response if it weren't for DSP". The context was in explaining how EQ is very effective in the design phase, but not so much for the end user. I'm likely misremembering, though. It's a very, very weak memory.

 

[YSC]

How do Neumann subs compare to Genelec subs? I've honestly never looked at Neumann subwoofers. If they're similar, then I'd say they're likely not competitive with the best ID subs from a price/performance perspective. For example, just one of my RS2 subwoofers out performs both of my 7370a subwoofers combined, despite being $500 less than an individual 7370a.

However, from a size/performance perspective, I'd say they may better than the ID subs, especially when you consider that they're only working with 400 watts(instead of 4000 in the RS2). The amount of output they get from a single 12 inch driver and just 400 watts is insane . I have a few 12" Infinity subs in another room and I was comparing them with the 7370s today, and it's no contest, the 7370s smoke the R12s. I'm guessing this insane size/performance has a lot to do with the spiral port design. It's kinda like a cinnamon roll, if I understand correctly, which allows them to really increase the length of the port without increasing its overall size very much.

Interesting, how to you get the conclusion of a rs2 outperform the genelecs? I am interested if it’s a measured case so when I need a sub I can buy them instead of the genelec ! And btw how do you match the sub level to the monitors? I am really not sure how to possibly match the volume

 

[infinitesymphony]

Max SPL is of course important though. Sadly, as Amir doesn’t want to risk damaging the speakers, he doesn’t do max SPL testing. In my Speaker Selector though, I do state the speaker’s sensitivity. Of course an 85dB speaker could get louder than an 89dB speaker if it can handle a ton of wattage, but knowing the sensitivity will at least be a decent data point for those with <100W amps.

Maybe we can use a combination of data points, like a.) if distortion is off the charts at 96 dB, record max SPL as 86 dB, b.) if distortion is starting to become a problem at 96 dB, record max as 96 dB, c.) if distortion is still okay at 96 dB, go with manufacturer spec. The higher-SPL speakers are more likely to have SPL specs included with the marketing materials or in the manuals. The specs may not be 100% accurate but could be good enough to use as starting points.

The problem with not being able to interpret measurements and relying on Olive's score is that the consumer may end up ruling out a speaker which he might have liked.

In my case it's the other way around; the combination of preference score data points we have is likely to make me buy something like the Edifier R1280T, which supposedly can jump from a 1.97 to a 5.80 preference score with EQ. Very curious to hear that difference myself. I probably would not have considered the speakers otherwise.

How do Neumann subs compare to Genelec subs? I've honestly never looked at Neumann subwoofers. If they're similar, then I'd say they're likely not competitive with the best ID subs from a price/performance perspective. For example, just one of my RS2 subwoofers out performs both of my 7370a subwoofers combined, despite being $500 less than an individual 7370a.

However, from a size/performance perspective, I'd say they may better than the ID subs, especially when you consider that they're only working with 400 watts(instead of 4000 in the RS2). The amount of output they get from a single 12 inch driver and just 400 watts is insane . I have a few 12" Infinity subs in another room and I was comparing them with the 7370s today, and it's no contest, the 7370s smoke the R12s. I'm guessing this insane size/performance has a lot to do with the spiral port design. It's kinda like a cinnamon roll, if I understand correctly, which allows them to really increase the length of the port without increasing its overall size very much.

I'm so, so curious to see more subwoofer reviews once we have a reliable way to evaluate performance. Could the Laminar Spiral Enclosure (LSE) be another case of Genelec getting way ahead of the curve () and charging a commensurate price? What do the price differences look like between low-end and mid-range subwoofers? Many questions left to answer, and so many speakers in need of reinforcement.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Why are all drivers protected by grills on the KH120 and not on this one?

I wonder if there's a resonance issue when trying to put a grille on a midrange driver. Neumann omit it on the KH420 midrange, Genelec omit it on The Ones midrange. Even Neumann's grille solution for the KH310s leaves a lot of room in front of the drivers.

 

[c1ferrari]

Hi Amir and everyone,

I hope you are all well and staying safe! I just wanted to congratulate Amir and ASR for the pursuit of science in audio.

Vbr,

Sam

 

[ReaderZ]

I wonder if there's a resonance issue when trying to put a grille on a midrange driver. Neumann omit it on the KH420 midrange, Genelec omit it on The Ones midrange. Even Neumann's grille solution for the KH310s leaves a lot of room in front of the drivers.

I don't see any for KH310's mid range dome.

 

[Habu]

 

[DS23MAN]

The mid dome is made by Peerless India.

 

[amirm]

Hi Amir and everyone,

I hope you are all well and staying safe! I just wanted to congratulate Amir and ASR for the pursuit of science in audio.

Vbr,

Sam

Good to hear from you you again Sam. It has been a while. Thank you so much for the kind words. It means a lot to me. You stay safe as well.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

View attachment 94965

The drivers are connected to the power amp board with what appears to be a garden variety Molex-style plug and socket -- nobody tell Danny Richie!

 

[infinitesymphony]

I don't see any for KH310's mid range dome.

Yes, that was my point, none of these 3-way speakers seem to have a built-in grille for the midrange driver. When I mentioned the grille for the KH310, I was referencing this post:

Hello from France

You can buy Neumann GKH 310 Metal grille to protect them:

View attachment 94861


View attachment 94860

Sincerely yours

Habu

 

[Robbo99999]

The differences of both generations are small, actually the 305 MKI measures even more linear than the 305 MKII.

Distortion makes a significant difference but even more intermodulation distortion and the cleanness in the midrange of the Neumann 3" mid dome which is one of the objectively and subjectively best mid drivers in the world, where distortions count much more than in the bass or highs.
Also the more vibrating enclosures of good cheap monitors like JBL, Kali etc. give a coloration that isn't seen directly in spinoramas. I owned the Kali IN-8 which is a step further to the 308 being a 3-way coaxial design from the same engineer who designed also the JBL 30x but again it cannot be compared to the KH310.

I am rather a "wooden ear" that usually doesn't never manage to listen to differences between amps, sources or even high bit rate MP3s but there I am quite sure that most listeners could tell blindly which is which, can only recommend you to do test them yourself, or actually not if you are happy with 308 and don't want to change them.

Yes they are and this is something that a single number like the Harman score doesn't show. I can and do EQ many of my loudspeakers like LS50, JBL LSR, Kali IN-8 and Neumann KH120 to a higher Harman score than the KH310 without EQ, but I would always chose the latter.

Again, you're comparing even less apples to apples each time you post, now I learn you not only have the previous gen JBL, but it's also the 305 and not the 308....your comparisons therefore bare no relationship to the second gen 308........first gen LSR 305 vs 2nd Gen 308p Mkii - you can't compare them, it's not valid. Unfortunately for your argument, your assertions therefore bare no weight on my proposal that if you don't listen at loud volumes then perhaps it would be difficult to give a preference to one or the other in blind testing if comparing 308p Mkii and the expensive Neumann speaker measured in this test. Surely a person of scientific rigour like yourself would know that basing your assumptions on your listening tests of first gen 305 are in no way comparable to a 2nd gen 308 that you haven't ever listened to!

(By the way, I'm not just basing my proposal on the very close Preference Score of 6.01 for the JBL 308p Mkii (Trim Switch -2dB) vs the 6.2 Score for the Neumann.....I'm also basing it on the fact that the 308 measured extremely well in all tests/variables apart from distortion, so I'm not just basing it on the Preference Score, which I know is not the "Be All & End All")

 

[thewas]

Again, you're comparing even less apples to apples each time you post, now I learn you not only have the previous gen JBL, but it's also the 305 and not the 308....your comparisons therefore bare no relationship to the second gen 308........first gen LSR 305 vs 2nd Gen 308p Mkii - you can't compare them, it's not valid. Unfortunately for your argument, your assertions therefore bare no weight on my proposal that if you don't listen at loud volumes then perhaps it would be difficult to give a preference to one or the other in blind testing if comparing 308p Mkii and the expensive Neumann speaker measured in this test. Surely a person of scientific rigour like yourself would know that basing your assumptions on your listening tests of first gen 305 are in no way comparable to a 2nd gen 308 that you haven't ever listened to!

Jeez, how do you assume that not owning those "miracles of engineering" 308 MKII doesn't mean that I have heard them several times and can compare their measurements to their predecessors?
As it has been written by many experienced members here the Harman model has quite some limitations especially in the upper range of the score and even is partially faulty/contradictory in its factoring.
Again I can only recommend you to get out from your Harman bubble where you think that you a bit of DSP/EQ flattening the responses of loudspeaker and headphone to some predefined target is that is needed, while ignoring any kind of other non-linearities and get to listen to something serious. Just putting some low budget drivers in a low budget resonating enclosure and DSPing them "to death" can make a quite a good result (especially if restricted to a low budget) but that is by far not the end of the flagpole as otherwise also no JBL 70x, M2 would exist. And again, the difference is unfortunately not only audible at max SPL when the smallers models reach their limits but also at normal listening volumes, unfortunately, as I wish I could be also 100% satisfied with my JBL, Kali etc. and I don't listen very loudly.

 

[q3cpma]

(By the way, I'm not just basing my proposal on the very close Preference Score of 6.01 for the JBL 308p Mkii (Trim Switch -2dB) vs the 6.2 Score for the Neumann.....I'm also basing it on the fact that the 308 measured extremely well in all tests/variables apart from distortion, so I'm not just basing it on the Preference Score, which I know is not the "Be All & End All")

Well, I doubt you can ignore that much distorsion, especially when H3 (and even H4 at ~180 Hz) is that high and when it's a speaker you're not supposed to use in nearfield. I'd be ready to pay $100~200 more if they just fixed the hiss, distorsion and cabinet resonances.

 

[thewas]

Well, I doubt you can ignore that much distorsion, especially when H3 (and even H4 at ~180 Hz) is that high and when it's a speaker you're not supposed to use in nearfield. I'd be ready to pay $100~200 more if they just fixed the hiss, distorsion and cabinet resonances.

If it was only the bass, these loudspeakers have a wide HD bump of 2% at exactly the most audible region at already 86 dB:

Here is a chart for the audibility of distortion:

 

[Robbo99999]

Jeez, how do you assume that not owning those "miracles of engineering" 308 MKII doesn't mean that I have heard them several times and can compare their measurements to their predecessors?
As it has been written by many experienced members here the Harman model has quite some limitations especially in the upper range of the score and even is partially faulty/contradictory in its factoring.
Again I can only recommend you to get out from your Harman bubble where you think that you a bit of DSP/EQ flattening the responses of loudspeaker and headphone to some predefined target is that is needed, while ignoring any kind of other non-linearities and get to listen to something serious. Just putting some low budget drivers in a low budget resonating enclosure and DSPing them "to death" can make a quite a good result (especially if restricted to a low budget) but that is by far not the end of the flagpole as otherwise also no JBL 70x, M2 would exist. And again, the difference is unfortunately not only audible at max SPL when the smallers models reach their limits but also at normal listening volumes, unfortunately, as I wish I could be also 100% satisfied with my JBL, Kali etc. and I don't listen very loudly.

facepalm your own arguments man, impossible to compare first gen LSR 305 to second gen 308p Mkii - totally facepalm moment, completely invalidates your listening tests vs my proposal. Again, I'm not saying I'm correct in my proposal, but I would wager it would be valid. I did admit that distortion was the 308 downfall, but at lower listening levels (not loud) I would wager my proposal would stand - it's a hypothesis, and would have to be put to test to validate or invalidate.....but unfortunately your first gen 305 listening tests do nothing to validate or invalidate my proposal/hypothesis.

EDIT: as a related aside, I've just done some of my own measurements of distortion on my JBL 308p Mkii speakers and I think they're showing significantly less distortion than the samples Amir measured unless I'm interpreting my measurements wrongly. I measured 2 speakers playing together at 2m distance (my listening position), so I think the calculations mean that this is equivalent of 1 speaker being measured at 1m in terms of the amount of stress each speaker is being put under.....ie the same stress. Total Harmonic Distortion is highlighted.
77dB My Normal Listening Level:

86dB My Absolute Max Listening Level: