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Neumann kh 310 + hk 750 vs kh 420

test1223

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Only thing is not really clear for me is the directivity issue.I beg your pardon but I don't have a technical background.
Try to figure out if you like more direct sound by listening to your KH 310 with about 1.5m distance if you like it better than in 2m distance you like a higher amount of direct sound. In this case the KH410 provides the quality of the KH310 at your listening distance of 2m plus the benefits of a higher listening distance.
If you choose the KH420 I would recommend dirac live as room correction.

I think the best investment would be room acoustics and correction however you implement it.
Also very deep bass is a good improvement. Even with the KH420 I would add multiple real subwoofer which can playback 16Hz. This will improve the sound a lot with some recordings.

The biggest Genelec One is objectively better than the KH420 and I would consider these. Kef R11, Me Geithain RL 921 are also interesting. If you will definitely go the speaker path.
 

FalconEddy

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Hey folks, first post here. Sorry for pulling up this 20 day old thread, but just wanted to establish a few things specific to this particular combination.

Initially, I've noticed in a couple of places where it appears the certain individuals are mentioning what looks like adding TWO KH 750's to a set up that has a single pair of KH 310's in it. What's up wid dat??? I mean, I'm an audio mastering engineer, and a single KH 750 should be able to able to balance out the pair of KH 310's without a problem, right? You'd just run pink noise to your main 310's, set them for between 85dB to 90dB. Shut the signal off to THEM. Run the same pink noise to the 750, get your reading at your meter for 85dB to 90dB at the same measurement distance as you did for the left and right 310's; and voila....your balanced. Hopefully you were smart enough to measure the levels from where you'd be listening.

So, what's the deal with using two subs. sort of overkill from my perspective. Although, in my Home Theater I have a vintage set of powered Infinity Overture 3's for the mains that reproduce lows down to 22hz (after modification), that will impress most viewers in there at around 115dB. One of my MOST favorite movies for EXTREME low end is the remake of 'WAR of the Worlds' with Tom Cruise. After the machine comes up out of the ground and fully generates its charge....The low end frequency portion of that electrical charge that instantly vaporizes all living organic tissue it contacts is OUTSTANDING! It completely envelopes your body and forces you to become part of that scene, as it continues to 'powderize' everyone it touches.

But, I digress....

What's the yank for using two of the KH 750 subs in conjunction with a pair of KH 310A's

And for THAT matter, what's the deal with the KH 310a mounted on top of a KH 420. I mean, sure the KH 420 is LOUDER, but the range doesn't reach as low as the KH 310a's.

Does someone need lessons in basic audio principles? Not trying to be a jerk, just don't get the odd match-up

. . Falcon
 

Frank Dernie

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Re: the original question, KH420s seem a bit oversized @ 2 m in a home environment. Yes they will work fine (minimum rated distance is 1.5 m, and noise floor is very low), but chances are they'll handle very high levels that you may never be able to use. They'll have narrower yet still well-controlled dispersion though... KH310s are substantially wider, they're designed for moving about in nearfield. Ultimately it'll also be a matter of how well-behaved the room is. As a home hi-fi listener you may be able to use the narrower dispersion of a KH420A but not so much its levels. Might be a niche for someone.


Unless you are listening inside an anechoic chamber, the level drop from 1 m to 6 m is essentially never going to be that extreme. There's a rule of thumb that levels at 2.5-3 m per stereo pair in a normal room will roughly equal those per speaker at 1m anechoic.
I am that niche :)
Of all the pro speakers I have seen data on the ones that most seem to match my room, listening distance and experience of wide v narrow directivity are the KH420s.
I am hoping to audition them after lockdown and see if the ME Geithian 901K or the completely different Genelec 8351/W371 are worth the extra for me.
 
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cesare

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Initially, I've noticed in a couple of places where it appears the certain individuals are mentioning what looks like adding TWO KH 750's to a set up that has a single pair of KH 310's in it. What's up wid dat???
In fact the same Neumann does not allow to use 2 kh 750 with its MA1 calibrating software.
 

DJBonoBobo

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In fact the same Neumann does not allow to use 2 kh 750 with its MA1 calibrating software.

Not yet, but they included a workaround for using two subs. So i would not say "not allow". Software is just not ready for this yet.
 
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cesare

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Not yet, but they included a workaround for using two subs. So i would not say "not allow". Software is just not ready for this yet.
Ok not now may be in the long run.Somebody says in the long run we are all ...:)
 
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cesare

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Djbonobobo I can see you have a complete Neumann setup.I own a pair of KH310.May I ask you how effective is the adding of KH 750 and Ma-1 software? Kh120 are surround speakers?
 

q3cpma

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Hey folks, first post here. Sorry for pulling up this 20 day old thread, but just wanted to establish a few things specific to this particular combination.

Initially, I've noticed in a couple of places where it appears the certain individuals are mentioning what looks like adding TWO KH 750's to a set up that has a single pair of KH 310's in it. What's up wid dat??? I mean, I'm an audio mastering engineer, and a single KH 750 should be able to able to balance out the pair of KH 310's without a problem, right? You'd just run pink noise to your main 310's, set them for between 85dB to 90dB. Shut the signal off to THEM. Run the same pink noise to the 750, get your reading at your meter for 85dB to 90dB at the same measurement distance as you did for the left and right 310's; and voila....your balanced. Hopefully you were smart enough to measure the levels from where you'd be listening.

So, what's the deal with using two subs. sort of overkill from my perspective. Although, in my Home Theater I have a vintage set of powered Infinity Overture 3's for the mains that reproduce lows down to 22hz (after modification), that will impress most viewers in there at around 115dB. One of my MOST favorite movies for EXTREME low end is the remake of 'WAR of the Worlds' with Tom Cruise. After the machine comes up out of the ground and fully generates its charge....The low end frequency portion of that electrical charge that instantly vaporizes all living organic tissue it contacts is OUTSTANDING! It completely envelopes your body and forces you to become part of that scene, as it continues to 'powderize' everyone it touches.

But, I digress....

What's the yank for using two of the KH 750 subs in conjunction with a pair of KH 310A's

And for THAT matter, what's the deal with the KH 310a mounted on top of a KH 420. I mean, sure the KH 420 is LOUDER, but the range doesn't reach as low as the KH 310a's.

Does someone need lessons in basic audio principles? Not trying to be a jerk, just don't get the odd match-up

. . Falcon
The headroom gain of pair should be appreciable, as the KH750DSP really doesn't go loud AND low. It's a sealed 10" with a "small" amplifier, after all.
750-MAX.jpg
 

DJBonoBobo

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Djbonobobo I can see you have a complete Neumann setup.I own a pair of KH310.May I ask you how effective is the adding of KH 750 and Ma-1 software? Kh120 are surround speakers?

I use the KH310 + 750 in my mancave, KH120 in the living room.

I wrote about it a few times already, look here for the effect of the sub alone: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.13540/page-3#post-408953

And here impressions and measurements with the MA1: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ic-monitor-alignment.17902/page-5#post-606992

More here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ic-monitor-alignment.17902/page-5#post-631053

And so on...

In short: For me, it was a fantastic update. Very happy. Wish it had come out a few years earlier, would have saved me countless hours of trying to optimize.
 

phoenixsong

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If my living room measures 6 x 4.6 x 3.5 meters with only the front half flanked by walls, which speakers out of the Kh120, KH310 and KH420 would be most suitable for it? (with sub recommendations if necessary)
 

Tovarich007

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I live in Italy, bought Neumann from Thomann.I'm sure you know this company, if you are in France, like your avatar says.They don't sell Genelec 8351 nor 8361.I asked to Italian shops, they will order the speakers only after you have paid.Then you need to wait 6-8 weeks.You are right,If you don't like maybe you can send them back.But I wouldn't feel comfortable in such a situation .

Cesare, you mean it's impossible to listen to Genelec the Ones in Italy ? So sad to hear. In France (i'm a frenchy too), of course, you can listen and buy Genelec 8351 B and 8361. And you can have the dedicated W371 subwoofer as well, have a look on Bernard's thread on this forum !

I am planning with this friend to audition within the next two weeks these Genelecs at a pro dealer shop, and in another one pro distributor booth, I try to to settle a comparison between the Genelec 8361 and the PSI A 25M (PSI is an excellent swiss pro brand by the way, the two models I've heard, the A17M and A 23M, have blown me away by their precision, resolution of acoustical timbres and dynamics). But Genelec 's The Ones are certainly on a par, though technologically quite different.

The old generation Genelecs I have auditionned (1030,1031 and 1032) were pretty good anyway, to a lesser degree than the PSIs. Neumanns are, all in all, less expensive than Genelec and PSI and produces well regarded speakers.

Whatever the final choice, based on budget, personal preferences and "WAF factor", I can't figure out how one could be disappointed by either one of these three brands and products.

To answer this thread's initial question, I would personnaly go for the KH 310 with KH 750 sub. More flexible solution, and you can EQ the bass response with DSP and MA1, that's an unquestionnable advantage, all other things equal. Or, if you prefer "classical" full range speakers like the KH 420, you have to buy a Dac equipped with a room correction system, the likes of Dirac pro, for example Minidsp or Xilica Solaro products (the last one AD/DA and modular).
 
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CMB

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I know this has been already briefly answered, but I still try to understand these SPL figures from Neumann, could someone please help me out ?
(I would like to virtually compare with the amount of noise I can currently produce and measure in dB,A or LC peak in my living room)

Neumann says :
KH 310 alone max 116 dB @ 1 m
KH 750 only 105 dB (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz) @ 1m
(also the graph below suggests much lower levels especially at 30 or 20 Hz):

Capture d’écran 2021-06-29 à 17.49.50.png


So the combo would be basically limited to only 105 dB @ 1m right ?
If you take 2 KH 750 would that then be 105 + 6 dB (for adding another) => 111 dB @ 1m?

Is Neumann speaking dB, A or LC peak here?

Based on 111dB @ 1m
=> ca. 100dB @ 3,5 m?
=> ca. 95dB @ 6 m?

Should I be able to speculate on another +3 dB for room influence?

Would the MA1 DSP - cut further the max. SPL by some or many dB?
If yes, how much is loss would need to be expect?

Thanks in advance
 

FrantzM

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Why I bought the Neuman’s
I found the company specs were verifiable with my own in room measurement. This is a big thing to me.
Bass with a -3 dB @ 26 Hz point is well integrated and has amazing punch.
I have a dip at 60 Hz from my left speaker due to room node. I was able to flatten with the use of the KH805. As an added benefit I have -3 dB of 18 Hz. extension.
Another reason to buy Neumann products is they are well thought out and work very well together
That’s why I voted Neumann, I have only heard the Genelec’s at shows and preferred the Neuman’s. YMMV

Anyone with 18 Hz @ -3dB ... is on my hate list. With the Neumann KH 310 and KH750 ... You are inching toward the top ..:p
Congratulations for what I am sure is a stupendous sounding system :D
 

Frgirard

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I posted about it some time ago:

Personally, I'd take the KH420A and use external room correction, as you can't easily fix the (small but existent) directivity issues of the KH310A. I also expect the ported 10" woofer in the KH420A to go louder than a sealed 10" + 8" (Neumann says so, 110 dB for the KH420A vs 105 dB for the KH750DSP for "Max. SPL in half space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz)"). If you don't want hassle, the MA-1 with the KH310A + KH750DSP certainly is a nice solution; but I thought OP didn't want DSP?


Obviously because it goes 10 Hz or so lower.
You hear 10 Hz?
 

DJBonoBobo

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I know this has been already briefly answered, but I still try to understand these SPL figures from Neumann, could someone please help me out ?
(I would like to virtually compare with the amount of noise I can currently produce and measure in dB,A or LC peak in my living room)

Neumann says :
KH 310 alone max 116 dB @ 1 m
KH 750 only 105 dB (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz) @ 1m
(also the graph below suggests much lower levels especially at 30 or 20 Hz):

View attachment 138122

So the combo would be basically limited to only 105 dB @ 1m right ?
If you take 2 KH 750 would that then be 105 + 6 dB (for adding another) => 111 dB @ 1m?

Is Neumann speaking dB, A or LC peak here?

Based on 111dB @ 1m
=> ca. 100dB @ 3,5 m?
=> ca. 95dB @ 6 m?

Should I be able to speculate on another +3 dB for room influence?

Would the MA1 DSP - cut further the max. SPL by some or many dB?
If yes, how much is loss would need to be expect?

Thanks in advance

I took the measurements from Soundandrecording and layered them quickly (i know, X-axis is wrong, but don´t know how to fix):
1624988856746.png


Both are for 1 box only, so you can add +6 dB to the KH310 (double SPL = +6dB). But, the measurements are for freefield, so you can add something like +10dB to the sub if it is on the floor and close to a wall ("quarter space"). The KH310 will be a bit louder as well because of walls, of course.
If you add a second sub, it´s +6dB again.

Look: https://en-de.neumann.com/glossary-monitors (i got the 10 dB from page 1 of the technical glossary).
 
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CMB

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Thank you already and again DjBonoBobo:).
Let me try to reflect on your wise words again and on the Neumann Technically Glossary for a few more months to try to come up with a number :).

As a first idea, one should be able to add then +16dB on the Sub level up to 80 Hz (Floor&Wall) and +6 dB above >80 Hz on the 310.

Still need to find 2 answers on my equation:
Still not certain about if it is dB (A) or LC peak?
SPL loss due to MA1?

Would that actually mean that until a certain level (around 110 dB/ the highest SPL of the sub) ALL is theoretically flat, and if you add more SPL only the frequency able to play louder do so?
 

Frgirard

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From the phrasing I think they meant that the bass extends 10Hz lower (than something of comparison) instead of it extending down to 10Hz lol

+1
I used a kh810 with k+h o300.
On the neumann website, they explain why the sub response is extended to 18Hz.
Now i used a kh 420.
Two 10' against one.
 

DJBonoBobo

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Thank you already and again DjBonoBobo:).
Let me try to reflect on your wise words again and on the Neumann Technically Glossary for a few more months to try to come up with a number :).

As a first idea, one should be able to add then +16dB on the Sub level up to 80 Hz (Floor&Wall) and +6 dB above >80 Hz on the 310.

Still need to find 2 answers on my equation:
Still not certain about if it is dB (A) or LC peak?
SPL loss due to MA1?

Would that actually mean that until a certain level (around 110 dB/ the highest SPL of the sub) ALL is theoretically flat, and if you add more SPL only the frequency able to play louder do so?

You are welcome. Unfortunately i cannot answer your other questions and i am not sure about the correct number myself. One correction though: according to neumann, 1st wall or floor is +4db, 2nd +6db, so i meant +10db for wall and floor combined. In reality you will have additional dips and peaks because of room modes and SBIR.
 
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