Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

[Moonhead]

Am I understanding this right, that this is the highest pref. score to date for a speaker with sub?

 

[changer]

I dont think using Equalizer APO to EQ passive speakers is very different from what happens in dsp speakers.

The Neumann speaker uses FIR filters to correct phase independent from frequency response. If the passive speaker has terminals for each way, it is possible to create your own FIR crossover from a computer. You would also need to measure an spin of the speaker quasi-anechoic for each way to create the equalization. Buy a digital source and a DAC that will apply FIR crossover and equalization. Many here use expansive room-EQ products, they might tell if there is simpler solutions for this.

However, most hobbyists, let alone regular consumers, would not be capable to digitalize their passive speaker in such a degree.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Luckily it was in a certain context!

View attachment 249424

I assumed people would watch that part (;

 

[Eetu]

Am I understanding this right, that this is the best pref. score to date for a speaker with sub?

8.6 tie with Genelec 8341A and if you include Erin's Klippel data also the 8331A and March Audio Sointuva. The Ascend Sierra-LX also got the same score (and done with Klippel NFS IIRC) but would be nice to have 3rd party data on that.

 

[FeddyLost]

It looks like they made good "almost equal" substitute to old KH310, which is more compact and convenient with DSP correction.
It's very interesting to compare directly KH150 with competitors including measurement and blind listening.
Measurements of KH150 looks almost as good as it gets. Main question is if this extensive internal processing does no harm?
IMO now they should renew KH310 or sales will go down.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

As usual, exceptional, category-defining performances from Neumann. Check mate(?!)
It is interesting that at ASR, when it comes to end game, Neumann is often forgotten. Yet, it seems that Neumann has 5 (6 if we count the KH80) speakers in the ASR top ten in term of measurements, In fact top 5 seems to have 3 Neumann!!! KH 150, KH120, KH 420.

Time to control the "Genelec the best", knee-jerk reaction we tend to have here.... There is a New King.

Peace

 

[xaviescacs]

Measurements aside, there's still a chance you'd like the Genelecs more when you hear them.

Sure, but who cares about what I like...

 

[danbei]

Interesting
In this video he says you need 2 KH750 subs for use with KH150

It is unclear to me if it is 2 KH750 for 1 KH150 or 2 KH750 for 2 KH150 that is recommended in this video. What do you understand?

 

[Sokel]

It is unclear to me if it is 2 KH750 for 1 KH150 or 2 KH750 for 2 KH150 that is recommended in this video. What do you understand?

I suppose it's two to two as we see them in studios (same with Genelecs).

 

[Digby]

Ok, yes, I do think those positives are percievable.

Compared to a decent pair of satellites + sub/s? It is a difficult comparison to make, but for the same money that option is available.

The interesting question for me is where the limits of my hearing are. For example, if I can't differentiate, on listening to music, between a 0.3db deviation and a 0.9db deviation from flat FR at x point, then money can be allocated differently/more intelligently. The same applies to distortion, what levels can I hear, which harmonics are more audible/unpleasant and so on. Earl Geddes did some tests on distortion and had interesting things to say here, as to what can and cannot be perceived:

He says at one point that 20% distortion, 20%! was inaudible when testing compression drivers at high levels.

It takes a lot of time and energy to figure these things out properly (blind testing), so obviously a speaker that performs like this is an easy 'one stop shop', but at a cost, a cost which could buy an decent pair of satellites and a sub or two as well. If we take cost out of the equation, then it is among the best speakers of this size, but I think cost is never out of the equation in practise.

 

[Sokel]

Hi

As usual, exceptional, category-defining performances from Neumann. Check mate(?!)
It is interesting that at ASR, when it comes to end game, Neumann is often forgotten. Yet, it seems that Neumann has 5 (6 if we count the KH80) speakers in the ASR top ten in term of measurements, In fact top 5 seems to have 3 Neumann!!! KH 150, KH120, KH 420.

Time to control the "Genelec the best", knee-jerk reaction we tend to have here.... There is a New King.

Peace

The only thing I see that Genelec is better is that their upgrade path includes a true (?) third way (woofer) instead of just a complimentary sub.

 

[CMB]

Hi

As usual, exceptional, category-defining performances from Neumann. Check mate(?!)
It is interesting that at ASR, when it comes to end game, Neumann is often forgotten. Yet, it seems that Neumann has 5 (6 if we count the KH80) speakers in the ASR top ten in term of measurements, In fact top 5 seems to have 3 Neumann!!! KH 150, KH120, KH 420.

Time to control the "Genelec the best", knee-jerk reaction we tend to have here.... There is a New King.

Peace

I think Neumann is very well recognized brand here in my opinion.
I had to make exactly that choice before.

The single products are no doubt exceptional and if they match your exact use, then perfect.

The weakness might be the global offering, specifically for the « non-pro user » that doesn’t want to add external dsp to the speakers and/or the subs; or the one that is thinking about flexible/expandable usages.

Larger speakers with no DSP integrated (310/420) (yet?).

Only 1 sub with DSP integrated and a very limited one in terms of output (especially if to use with the larger speakers). While you have a large choice with Genelec.

MA-1 vs GLM.

The Genelec universe seems more coherent to me at this stage, but love to see Neumann catching up on this.

 

[Rednaxela]

I assumed people would watch that part (;

Of course you did. It's what happens when you leave out details to make a quote seem more controversial than it really is.

Thought I'd save everybody the trouble on their Monday morning.

 

[FrantzM]

The only thing I see that Genelec is better is that their upgrade path includes a true (?) third way (woofer) instead of just a complimentary sub.

While ugly and unwieldy, the KH750 would be a very good woofer for the KH 150, of course one per speaker. Performance would be greatly ameliorated (!!!!) in the low end... This system (KH 150 + KH750) x 2 would be less than the price of a pair of Genelec 8361 or Neuman KH 420... About $7500, if one add the MA-1 software/hardware... This represent a gravity defying level of performance in a medium room, IME, IMHO...

Damn!!!!

Viva Neuman?

Yep!

Peace.

 

[Sokel]

While ugly and unwieldy, the KH750 would be a very good woofer for the KH 150, of course one per speaker. Performance would be greatly ameliorated (!!!!) in the low end... This system (KH 150 + KH750) x 2 would be less than the price of a apir of Genelec 8361 or Neuman KH 420... About $7500, if one add the MA-1 software/hardware... This represent a gravity defying level of performance in a medium room, IME, IMHO...

Damn!!!!

Viva Neuman?

Yep!

Peace.

KH750 has 80 Hz fixed if i get it right for xover,that doesn't make it a true woofer.It has to go to the 200-300Hz area to be one (so it must do more than 700Hz).
I'm not really sure if W371A does that but from what I'm reading here seems that it can.
Expensive,I know...

 

[Trell]

MA-1 vs GLM.

I’m a bit surprised that IPv6 is required for MA-1.

“IPv6 supported and enabled”

MA 1

MA 1 - - KH 420,KH 310 A,KH 120 A G,KH 750 DSP,KH 80 DSP A G,KH 120 A W,KH 420 + DIM 1,KH 120 D G,KH 310 D,KH 80 DSP A W,Electronics - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

 

[FrantzM]

KH750 has 80 Hz fixed if i get it right for xover,that doesn't make it a true woofer.It has to go to the 200-300Hz area to be one (so it must do more than 700Hz).
I'm not really sure if W371A does that but from what I'm reading here seems that it can.
Expensive,I know...

It seems you are correct on this. I would have expected Neumann to provide flexible crossover with the MA-1.. Doesn't seem to be the case... Still... The KH 150 as a satellite in Geddes-way, is a great solution for extremely high performance in a small to medium room, say up to 3 meters MLP.
My on-paper dream would be to use these with the Rythmik FM-8 and control these with a miniDSP.. A complicated, time-consuming speaker system for sure but ... doable... If you have the inclination. Same $7500.oo budget covers everything (DSP included), later 2 external largish subwoofers (12, 15 inches) , again in a Geddes configuration... Heavens.

Peace.

 

[Tangband]

Although like you say the radiating surface is not very different, the advantage is that you reduce significantly multitone and IMD distortion by highpassing a 2-way loudspeaker.

True, plus the fact that even If the radiating surface is the same, a good subwoofer driver is made to play bass in a good way , and it dont need to play in the midrange = the difference is much bigger than only the radiating surface.
A good longthrow 8-inch subwoofer can move much more air than two 6,5 inch driver that has limitations in excursion.
( as you know )

 

[hege]

Hi

As usual, exceptional, category-defining performances from Neumann. Check mate(?!)
It is interesting that at ASR, when it comes to end game, Neumann is often forgotten. Yet, it seems that Neumann has 5 (6 if we count the KH80) speakers in the ASR top ten in term of measurements, In fact top 5 seems to have 3 Neumann!!! KH 150, KH120, KH 420.

Time to control the "Genelec the best", knee-jerk reaction we tend to have here.... There is a New King.

Category yes. Neumann doesn't have any real "end game" main monitors, KH420 is cute but it's still a 10" 3-way. There's not even 1237A equivalent model anymore like the old K+H O500 was.

 

[Waxx]

Category yes. Neumann doesn't have any real "end game" main monitors, KH420 is cute but it's still a 10" 3-way. There's not even 1237A equivalent model anymore like the old K+H O500 was.

It's that that market is very small and often a product that does not make profit. Big studio's that have space for a main monitor are getting rare. In most cases even a KH420 is already too big for a lot of modern studio's. Production budgets are getting smaller and smaller, and a lot of the artists have their own advanced home studio now, so the market for big studio's with large consoles and main monitors is in serious decline. And as most engineers today mix largely in the box and don't use the big consoles and racks of outboard devices in big controlrooms anymore, that kind of monitor became largely irrellevant.

It's good for the prestige of the brand, but not for the profit margin. I think Neumann decided that it's not worth the effort. And i don't see how it would be worth the effort for hifi speakers neighter, as the KH420 is more than powerfull enough (with low distortion) to fill big rooms, bigger than 99% of the market has. If they need to put a lot of money in the development of that kind of system, they need to be sure that they can get it back with enough sales. So the KH420 with additional subwoofers like the KH870 should cover that <1% of the market and cost way less in development.

And a 10" is all that is needed to go low, especially when you have a few of it. I had a diy a subwoofer with a 10" scanspeak driver that was tuned to 24Hz (F3) and had an F10 of 19Hz. It was too low for my use, and i did change the design to closed box with F6 of 30Hz that fitted my need better. But it's certainly not impossible. If you need more volume than the 100dB those could give at 25hz, multiply the cone surface (and so the drivers). Bruno Putzeys does it even with 12x6.5" woofers to 20Hz in his Kii Three BXT setup.