Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

[CMB]

Excuse my Alzheimer if this had been discussed before.

I understand Amir would not really recommend those for farfield. Some might however consider it and Neumann even mentioned up to 6m as faisable.

Neumann highlights the SPL qualities of these KH150 (higher than KH310).

Then, for full ranging these, you might be tempt to want to add subs and add them ideally into the system with MA1. If I understood this correctly, only KH750 would be available for this (correct?). Then you might probably loose much of the benefit of the higher SPL, even if using 2 subs, or?

 

[Sokel]

Is the spec'd SPL capability covers the whole range (apart from the low end roll of of course)?

Edit:I know there's a bunch of spec's,but this ones do not encourage far field much:

 

[CMB]

In the vid, around 3:10, the gentleman explained that KH150 (118dB) has actually more spl than KH310 (116).

Comparing the figures of the KH150 above with the corresponding ones from KH310 below would suggest differently to me.

But again, I am no ingenieur.

Max. short term SPL with music material at 2.3 m in typical listening conditions (pair / full range)	100 dB(C) SPL
Max. short term SPL with music material at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (pair with subwoofer)	107 dB(C) SPL
Max. long term SPL with pink noise at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (single / pair full range)	93 / 99 dB(C) SPL
Max. long term SPL with pink noise at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (single / pair with subwoofer)	94 / 100 dB(C) SPL

 

[Puddingbuks]

This KH150 is ruler flat, thanks to dsp.

If I would screw a purifi 6,5 inch midwoofer in a stiff cabinet, with a bliesma midrange and tweeter, and use dsp (from a hypex plate amp FA253) to set crossovers and levels, measure and flatten the response, would it be possible to get the same ruler flat output?

Or do these companies have more intricate dsp to optimize the frequency response?

The reason why I ask this is that the man behind grimm once said that you could only achieve real high end results with meticulous adjusting a dsp within controlled circumstances and that this would be a different category than the dsp measurements at home, with umik/rew for example. Agree?

 

[changer]

Depends how linear the drivers are and how many PEQs you need to linearize them. I use all 15 available per channel in the Hypex, and get a response that is very flat. But the Neumanns are flat flat.

Does it matter for listening, though? I don’t think so. This is more about how aesthetically pleasing a measurement graph is looking.

 

[thewas]

Im sure they have a Klippel system .

AFAIK they don't, by the way also their older models were very in times when the NFS wasn't even released. They have a relatively small anechoic chamber and a Klippel laser scanner though for driver measurements and optimisation (have visited their R&D centre two times in the past and quite good contact with them). As shown by some DIY people high quality measurements can be also made without it, it just takes more time and effort.

 

[daftcombo]

This KH150 is ruler flat, thanks to dsp.

If I would screw a purifi 6,5 inch midwoofer in a stiff cabinet, with a bliesma midrange and tweeter, and use dsp (from a hypex plate amp FA253) to set crossovers and levels, measure and flatten the response, would it be possible to get the same ruler flat output?

Or do these companies have more intricate dsp to optimize the frequency response?

The reason why I ask this is that the man behind grimm once said that you could only achieve real high end results with meticulous adjusting a dsp within controlled circumstances and that this would be a different category than the dsp measurements at home, with umik/rew for example. Agree?

It should be possible!

 

[beagleman]

Combining those kh150 with two good subwoofers crossed at about 80 Hz would be a true high end system .

Important then would be the crossover integration with both correct slopes for HP/LP . In a DSP system , its important with timealignment for subs and main speakers because there is a latency in the dsp system , as we all know.

(Im sure Neumann have done this correctly with their own subwoofers)
View attachment 249205

Reverse the phase of the sub 180 degrees, and adjust for the Lowest level of bass you can get near the crossover frequency with test tones, and then invert phase back 180 degrees and you have maximum output at crossover.

 

[beagleman]

One cant fool acoustics , - really small boxes have dissadvantages in the low bass area because of the smaller box volume .

What has happened by using dsp processing in PA systems the last 20 years and the past 7 years in studiomonitors, is that you can shrink the boxes keeping the distortion low . There is clever engineering with limiters and HP crossovers below tuning point in these monitors .

My own take on Neumann monitors ( and the equivalents from Genelec ) is that you can play much louder with those in a normal livingroom compared to a similar sized passive loudspeaker. In a dsp speaker, the lowbass can typically go 15 Hz lower than a passive box of similar size.

And yes - one can use those in normal livingrooms. I do with 8340, and I wouldnt do that if the sound wasnt very good.
(Ofcourse you also need subwoofers .)

Hofmann's Iron Law
three parameters that cannot all be had at the same time. They are low-bass reproduction, small (enclosure) size, and high (output) sensitivity." Hofmann stated that designers could pick two of these three parameters, but in doing so, it would compromise the third parameter.

DSP can get around ONE of those limitations, but at the expense of another.

 

[Matias]

This KH150 is ruler flat, thanks to dsp.

If I would screw a purifi 6,5 inch midwoofer in a stiff cabinet, with a bliesma midrange and tweeter, and use dsp (from a hypex plate amp FA253) to set crossovers and levels, measure and flatten the response, would it be possible to get the same ruler flat output?

Or do these companies have more intricate dsp to optimize the frequency response?

The reason why I ask this is that the man behind grimm once said that you could only achieve real high end results with meticulous adjusting a dsp within controlled circumstances and that this would be a different category than the dsp measurements at home, with umik/rew for example. Agree?

Remember it is not only ruler flat on axis response set in EQ, but also a smooth dispersion to the sides. And there the waveguide is crucial to blend the drivers in proper directivity.

Unless a driver manufacturer would sell a kit with waveguide too already optimized for the drivers of that kit. Then it would be as you said: add cabinet, plate amp with DSP and all good.

 

[Tangband]

Hofmann's Iron Law
three parameters that cannot all be had at the same time. They are low-bass reproduction, small (enclosure) size, and high (output) sensitivity." Hofmann stated that designers could pick two of these three parameters, but in doing so, it would compromise the third parameter.

DSP can get around ONE of those limitations, but at the expense of another.

Amirms measurements shows different.
You dont see passive loudspeakers in the size of Neumann kh150 that have as low distortion at high levels .

I would say nowadays the dsp can get around 2 out of three, with a little help of high excursion drivers and a lot of power .

( one example is modern closed box subwoofers with small boxes, Linkwitz transformer, high excursion drivers and massive amounts of power and SPL .)

 

[Morpheus]

Also, mandates horizontal positioning, wich for some people and situations is a non-
starter.

The KH310 is also a much larger speaker than the KH150.

 

[VariousArtists]

So this is almost matching the performance of the Genelec 8361A for less than half the price, am I reading the measurements right?

 

[danbei]

In the vid, around 3:10, the gentleman explained that KH150 (118dB) has actually more spl than KH310 (116).

Comparing the figures of the KH150 above with the corresponding ones from KH310 below would suggest differently to me.

But again, I am no ingenieur.

Max. short term SPL with music material at 2.3 m in typical listening conditions (pair / full range)	100 dB(C) SPL
Max. short term SPL with music material at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (pair with subwoofer)	107 dB(C) SPL
Max. long term SPL with pink noise at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (single / pair full range)	93 / 99 dB(C) SPL
Max. long term SPL with pink noise at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (single / pair with subwoofer)	94 / 100 dB(C) SPL

Good point, the KH 150 specs actually looks weird to me, especialy this line compared to the KH 80:

Sources:

KH 150 EU/KR

KH 150 - - Control Network,Self Calibration,Digital + Analog Input,Delay,Broadcast,Home Studio,Domestic Environment,Editing Suite,Professional Recording Studio,Up to 6 m (18 ft),Up to 4 m (12 ft),Up to 3 m (9 ft),Nearfield Monitor,Down to 57 Hz,Down to 52 Hz - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

KH 80 DSP A G EU

KH 80 DSP A G - - Nearfield Monitor,Up to 3 m (9 ft),Down to 57 Hz,Control Network,Computer Desktop,Editing Suite,Domestic Environment,Home Studio,Professional Recording Studio,Delay,Broadcast,Self Calibration - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

What could explain this, assuming it is not a typo?

 

[Trell]

So this is almost matching the performance of the Genelec 8361A for less than half the price, am I reading the measurements right?

The Genelec 8361A has a higher output than the KH 150 and goes deeper, but @amirm does not measure max output of speakers or monitors. The 8361A is also coaxial.

Neumann KH 150 2-Wege Nearfield-Monitor im Test

Die in den letzten Jahren erschienenen Monitor-Modelle der KH-Serie von Neumann aus Berlin sind mit moderner DSP-Technik ausgestattet, ebenso der unlängst vorgestellte KH 150, der sich zwischen dem KH 120 und KH 310 einordnet. Von der Leistungsfähigkeit her ist der KH 150 dabei näher zum KH 310...

www.soundandrecording.de

Genelec 8361A – 3-Wege-Studiomonitor mit voll-koaxialer Treiberanordnung im Test

So gar nicht bescheiden beschreibt man bei Genelec das neue Modell 8361A mit folgenden Worten: »The 8361A offers the most advanced acoustic performance of any studio monitor on the planet.« Ob das nicht doch etwas hoch gegriffen ist, sei einmal dahingestellt. Die 8361A ist auf jeden Fall der...

www.soundandrecording.de

 

[Jason K]

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Neumann KH150 DSP 2-way studio monitor (active speaker). It is on loan from the company and costs US $1,750 (each).
View attachment 248927

The design language is not changed of course. The main woofer is 6.5 inches now powered by 120 watt dedicated amplifier. While it is about 3X larger than the KH 80 DSP, it is still light and quite manageable. Here is the back panel with all the expected connections/controls:
View attachment 248928

As bad luck would have it, I yet again managed to test a Neumann speaker during colder weather here (around 56 degrees F). I kept the speaker indoor prior to testing with Klippel NFS speaker measurement system. Reference axis was on the outside top of the woofer.

Neumann KH 150 Speaker Measurements
As usual, we start with our "spin graph" of the anechoic frequency response:
View attachment 248929
I never stop being shocked when I run the computational phase of the Klippel NFS out and pops up a frequency response that is ruler flat! It is as if I am measuring a piece of electronics. There is tiniest bit of shelving down below 200 Hz and a bit of droop at the top end, neither of which Neumann sees in their measurements.

What is uniquely impressive here is the bass extension to incredible 39 Hz for such a small speaker! Very nice.

There is a change in directivity due to Tweeter waveguide which could have probably only been avoided if the crossover point was lower in frequency.

Early window reflections show the classic issue we see in 2-way speakers with vertical directivity not being as good:
View attachment 248930
You can help that as noted with absorption or high distance (from ceiling). Or let it be as vertical dispersion is not as important as horizontal. Predicted-far field response is still quite good:
View attachment 248931

Near-field measurements of the port and drivers shows extremely good control of internal resonances:
View attachment 248932

Most impressive bit is the very low distortion from such a compact speaker:

View attachment 248933

View attachment 248934

Once again, at 86 dBSPL we are talking THD numbers that are in domain of electronics! See how the response essentially hugs the 0 dB axis. Even at 96 dBSPL, speaker is cruising above 100 Hz. Very remarkable.

Horizontal dispersion is a bit narrower at 50 degrees (as opposed to typical 60 degrees in my other tests):
View attachment 248935
View attachment 248936

Vertical dispersion as noted has the classic hole but otherwise, straightens out nicely:

View attachment 248937


CSD waterfall shows very nice control of resonances (as we could tell from spin data):
View attachment 248938

Finally, here is the step response for fans of that:

View attachment 248939

Neumann KH150 Monitor Listening Tests
As usual, I pulled up my female vocals to test for tonality. I was immediate hit with a warm signature that I am not used to hearing with small speakers/monitors. This persisted across many tracks which I contribute to nice bass extension. That led me into thinking subbass response would be good as well. That was not the case. Much of it is filtered due to sharp drop off in response. So for that, you still need a sub or a much larger monitor.

Listening across a range of tracks was a delight. In my near-field listening, the KH 150 could get as loud as I wanted. Bass response (above sub-pass) was substantial and quite clean (unless pushed hard). Detail was excellent as were the dynamics. My reference test track Io sono metà from the album Musica Nuda was superb:

The detail in strings and the warmth from subtle bass response was to die for.

Conclusions
Even though I expect excellence from Neumann I was still pleasantly surprised by the bass extension, very low distortion and manageable weight and size of the KH 150. The price is up there to be sure but so is the performance. For that cost you get a speaker that will surprise you in how full range it plays yet it is not a giant box on sides of your desk.

It is my pleasure to recommend Neumann KH 150.

-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Would you let me know what reference distance of the Spinorama data? It is somewhat different with S&R data.

 

[Tangband]

I

The Genelec 8361A has a higher output than the KH 150 and goes deeper, but @amirm does not measure max output of speakers or monitors. The 8361A is also coaxial.

Neumann KH 150 2-Wege Nearfield-Monitor im Test

Die in den letzten Jahren erschienenen Monitor-Modelle der KH-Serie von Neumann aus Berlin sind mit moderner DSP-Technik ausgestattet, ebenso der unlängst vorgestellte KH 150, der sich zwischen dem KH 120 und KH 310 einordnet. Von der Leistungsfähigkeit her ist der KH 150 dabei näher zum KH 310...

www.soundandrecording.de

View attachment 249266

Genelec 8361A – 3-Wege-Studiomonitor mit voll-koaxialer Treiberanordnung im Test

So gar nicht bescheiden beschreibt man bei Genelec das neue Modell 8361A mit folgenden Worten: »The 8361A offers the most advanced acoustic performance of any studio monitor on the planet.« Ob das nicht doch etwas hoch gegriffen ist, sei einmal dahingestellt. Die 8361A ist auf jeden Fall der...

www.soundandrecording.de

View attachment 249265

I wild guess would also be that 8361 , being a threeway, in reality has much lower IM distortion thus sounding better with complex music material ?

 

[hmt]

Amirms measurements shows different.
You dont see passive loudspeakers in the size of Neumann kh150 that have as low distortion at high levels .

I would say nowadays the dsp can get around 2 out of three, with a little help of high excursion drivers and a lot of power .

( one example is modern closed box subwoofers with small boxes, Linkwitz transformer, high excursion drivers and massive amounts of power and SPL .)

It is possible to achieve high output in a relatively small enclosure. Just not in the bass region. Plus there is also some room for a pareto improvement when using a better midwoofer. At the expense of price the limits can be bent somehow. Take a really good midwoofer with a long linear throw (maybe some purify woofer) and combine it with a beefy class d amp. Still will have lot's of IMD as a 2 way though.

 

[Waxx]

Good point, the KH 150 specs actually looks weird to me, especialy this line compared to the KH 80:
View attachment 249250View attachment 249251

Sources:

KH 150 EU/KR

KH 150 - - Control Network,Self Calibration,Digital + Analog Input,Delay,Broadcast,Home Studio,Domestic Environment,Editing Suite,Professional Recording Studio,Up to 6 m (18 ft),Up to 4 m (12 ft),Up to 3 m (9 ft),Nearfield Monitor,Down to 57 Hz,Down to 52 Hz - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

KH 80 DSP A G EU

KH 80 DSP A G - - Nearfield Monitor,Up to 3 m (9 ft),Down to 57 Hz,Control Network,Computer Desktop,Editing Suite,Domestic Environment,Home Studio,Professional Recording Studio,Delay,Broadcast,Self Calibration - Sennheiser Discover True Sound

en-de.neumann.com

What could explain this, assuming it is not a typo?

The KH80 is tuned much higher and so can deliver more spl. The KH150 is tuned very low for such a small woofer, and so it goes less loud. That is Hofmann's Iron Law in speaker design. It's the woofer that limits that in this case. Even if the woofer in the 150 is a 6" woofer and in the KH80 a 4", this is still into play. And 88dB is already very loud in a nearfield situation, so that should be no issue. For far field listening, these are not fit, like said before,. Then you better get the bigger models.

 

[Cinematic Laboratory]

I am really happy to see that the graphs confirm what my ears are telling me. I always think 'what comes in must come out' and Neumann mics are often used at the recording side. Unfortunately my room isn't as 'flat' as the measurements showed, but I have the even smalller KH80 DSP with built in correction curves (after measuring with the optional mic) which also produce great low end for such a tiny speaker. With the KH 750 sub you get an amazing little team that doesn't come cheap but really delivers the music (and the measurements).