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Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review
- Thread starter amirm
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TA21
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I use a Wiim Pro with my KH 120 II monitor speakers at my work desk.
I think the Wiim Pro is the only game in town for an affordable device that does digital output with a volume control (in the digital domain). Beyond that, it's $2,000+ pro audio gear devices. I have looked for an audio interface that could do this, but never found an affordable one. The affordable ones with coax digital output seem to only send digital out at fixed level.
The Wiim Pro works fine enough, although sometimes my left and right channels swap. I am not sure if it's the device or my computer.
I would prefer a device with a volume knob. The touch buttons on the Wiim Pro itself are annoying to use, and you can't just feel for it.
If you plan to connect your computer to the Wiim Pro by Blutooth, note that the Wiim Pro has a huge latency problem if you watch videos. I use wired connection from my computer to the Wiim.
I set a volume limit on the Wiim Pro device, just so I don't accidentally blast a loud digital signal into my speakers. You can adjust the input and output gain down on your Neumanns, so you can make fuller use of your Wiim Pro volume range.
I tried the Wiim Ultra, but returned it last week. There was simply way too much lag/delay. The delay adjustment feature didn't work either. I tried optical from my Motu 828 and HDMI from TV and they both had excessive delay. Going optical from TV/coaxial from TV to my TC Electronic BMC-2 has no delay and is pretty much on-par with going analog XLR to the speakers. The control knob also feels better than the Wiim as on the Wiim just the ring rotates which is odd. It also takes a long time to rotate the ring enough to change the volume. The up and down on remote is a bit better but still not as nice as I would have hoped for. The software wasn't that great either as switching inputs and outputs wasn't as easy as it should be. Maybe a firmware update could fix things but not sure? The main downside for the BMC-2 is there's no remote control option. I have tried using an ipad for volume control on 828 and it's okay ... just annoying needing to open up the ipad to change the volume remotely by pulling the fader up or down, but at the same time: probably not any more annoying than the wiim volume control. I did try a RME ADI 2/4 which was okay, but sort of a waste of money for simply using it for a remote volume control for the speakers and the headphone output wasn't really any better than the DX5 for me. The loudness feature didn't really do much for me personally either. I felt the MOTU 828 volume control is nicer anyways if you're just going analog out otherwise. The RME gets really hot too and doesn't measure that much better than the MOTU either.
I have a DX5 I use for headphone out ... but I've used the XLR outs to the KH150's for volume control and honestly can't really hear any audible difference between that and digital SPDIF input. (Not easy to compare though as you can't easily switch) I could audibly hear a difference between the DX5 and Wiim Ultra and the DX5 is better - maybe due to more power? Even on IEM's the DX5 is better than the WIIM (Motu 828 Headphone output isn't powerful enough) The DX5 also has a much better volume knob than the Wiim and the remote control works better. (I actually might prefer the DX5 knob over the RME) The fact it can be plugged directly into a computer for USB output is nice too. If I didn't record anything (or use MA-1 Calibration) I'd be fine with just the DX5 into the KH150's. For almost a year I used just the DX5 into the Neumanns without any problem and if I need a reason to sit further away again and need to use a remote control for volume I'll just plug the KH150's back into the DX5 via XLR.
Digital input is a mixed bag on the Neumann's sometimes as it sometimes cuts in and out a tiny bit from time to time depending on source/cables/etc. Though it running analog into them it's usually problem-free. I still go digital in since I have the BMC-2. (Usually moreso if running audio from the TV optical out though)
Overall I'd suggest the DX5 for volume control as it has a great headphone output and remote volume control and good physical volume knob. You probably won't notice any audible difference on the KH150 or KH120ii's for digital vs analog in.
I also highly recommend the MA-1 calibration: it works quite well. As far as KH750's: Unless you need a ton of volume - one is probably enough. The KH150's are fine without a sub too. I prefer KH150's without a sub over KH80's with dual KH750's.
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Wiim ultra has hdmi in, usb out to dac.
I wouldn’t expect much from the headphone out.
the main feature here is the sub out integration software to complement the stereo speakers.
Is there time alignment
How good is the auto eq function
Is it of use for high/low pass or filter curves.
I wouldn’t expect much from the headphone out.
the main feature here is the sub out integration software to complement the stereo speakers.
Is there time alignment
How good is the auto eq function
Is it of use for high/low pass or filter curves.
Ze Frog
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It mainly comes down to how will a speaker sound in the form at which it is sold to a customer. The KH 150 for example provides a response as measured out of the box and therefore that's how thing's are measured as a large majority that's about as far as they will go. You could PEQ a regular passive that's not too flawed to a flat response in some cases, but that's not indicative of the engineering and hard work done before the consumer purchases a product.
So really it's not skewed or giving actives an advantage as such, because that is how the product ships. Also speakers like these Neumann's are also measured as they are set factory, measurements with the MA1 would likely yield even more impressive results and remove the dip at crossover point and make response even flatter. So really active or passive, there is usually performance on the table to be had either way,but measuring for multiple different PEQ settings etc would quickly become overwhelming due to the many different possibilities.
Saying that, one thing that is on most reviews in the comments is PEQ profiles provided by a member here who's name elludes me at this moment, but those EQ settings and accompanying graphs do kind of give you what I think you are looking for and so can be interesting to see how with a bit of work something can actually be sometimes far better than our of the box as shipped measurements would provide.
I guess more units of 120ii have been sold.
It doesn't, not really - I know two people in my immediate circle with 150s that had the standby bug.
I have two pairs of KH 150's- xlr inputs - never has happened to me. Same with my two pairs of KH 120 II's.
for those who it has happened to.
are there any xlr analogue cases?
How is this related to electronics though ?
Wasn’t this solved by firmware update?
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Ze Frog
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Me personally, Neumann for sure.
There's detailed measurements of the Neumann, MA1 calibration, goes 5Hz lower, better directivity and just all around a known quantity really. Not to mention here in my country the Core A7's are like an extra £500 a pair, that's a good chunk towards a KH 750 sub in future which will seemlessly integrate via MA1. Not really anything I can find regarding the Dynaudio that would sway me that direction. Could be worth auditioning both if you can though.
As far as Dynaudio or Genelec/really any other speakers:
One nice aspect of the Neumann speakers compared to many other speaker companies is that they don't have too many models or update their speakers too often. Yes, constant progress is sometimes good, but not for resale value or just trying to find a cheap pair of used speakers to match your other speakers for surround setups.
For example the KH120A's are 13 years old and you can still calibrate them with a KH750 and they still sell for a decent price. The tweeters are all the same so you can easily mix and match and the only difference for the most part is the low-end. I could have bought a pair back in 2011 (I thought about it back then actually!) and I could still be using them as rear/height speakers and they would still match the KH150's I have instead of going through 25+ pairs of different speakers.
I contemplated picking up Genelecs: but look at their huge list of discontinued models: https://www.genelec.com/previous-models, or just their huge list of current models - their main monitor selection alone is probably more than the entire Neumann speaker selection! Trying to find 4 used reasonably-priced Genelecs that's the same version (A/B/C/D) for height or surround or center speakers is not easy.
Dynaudio has 3 ranges of speakers: Core/Lyd/BM and discontinued versions too. Adam has multiple ranges and versions, though admittedly the original A series were around for a while. KRK and Presonus has had many ranges/versions - and as they are usually cheaper models: their value usually drops quite quickly. Buying the cheapest KH80 or a KH420 will have the same tweeter/overall general sound.
Smaller studio speaker makers can make some nice/highly reviewed state-of-the-art speakers: for example: Equator speakers were quite nice: The D5's and Q10's I had were pretty great, but they went out of business. (Equator Q15 15" coaxial monitors would still be quite unique!) Event Electronics made some nice speakers including the Event Opal: but they were bought by Rode which doesn't even have a speaker division: so you'd think they'd keep making speakers: but they just seemed to shut down Event Electronics and never made speakers!
I think once the KH310 is updated and KH420 is updated to have digital calibration the lineup will be pretty great! Though I would suggest AES67 capability in all models and not two different versions. A revised KH750 + KH870 wouldn't hurt though - aka the KH750 has limitations as it was made as a sub for stereo capabilities - aka hooking up two KH80's, so a version more suited for bass management in an atmos system would be preferable.
As far as Cardioid capabilities like Kii/D&D/Mesonovic CDM65: it's quite unique, but lots of studios just have in-wall mounting such as a KH420 soffit mounted: so cardioid wouldn't work anyways. I will admit one of my favorite speakers I've heard are Mesanovic RTM65's though, but haven't owned them - not cardioid, but woofers on the side, so it wouldn't be able to be soffit mounted.
Overall, the number of models/how often revisions occur and the simple fact that some smaller manufacturers may go out of business randomly or be bought out and shut down overnight is something to take into consideration if you plan on buying some expensive speakers or investing in a large surround set.
One nice aspect of the Neumann speakers compared to many other speaker companies is that they don't have too many models or update their speakers too often. Yes, constant progress is sometimes good, but not for resale value or just trying to find a cheap pair of used speakers to match your other speakers for surround setups.
For example the KH120A's are 13 years old and you can still calibrate them with a KH750 and they still sell for a decent price. The tweeters are all the same so you can easily mix and match and the only difference for the most part is the low-end. I could have bought a pair back in 2011 (I thought about it back then actually!) and I could still be using them as rear/height speakers and they would still match the KH150's I have instead of going through 25+ pairs of different speakers.
I contemplated picking up Genelecs: but look at their huge list of discontinued models: https://www.genelec.com/previous-models, or just their huge list of current models - their main monitor selection alone is probably more than the entire Neumann speaker selection! Trying to find 4 used reasonably-priced Genelecs that's the same version (A/B/C/D) for height or surround or center speakers is not easy.
Dynaudio has 3 ranges of speakers: Core/Lyd/BM and discontinued versions too. Adam has multiple ranges and versions, though admittedly the original A series were around for a while. KRK and Presonus has had many ranges/versions - and as they are usually cheaper models: their value usually drops quite quickly. Buying the cheapest KH80 or a KH420 will have the same tweeter/overall general sound.
Smaller studio speaker makers can make some nice/highly reviewed state-of-the-art speakers: for example: Equator speakers were quite nice: The D5's and Q10's I had were pretty great, but they went out of business. (Equator Q15 15" coaxial monitors would still be quite unique!) Event Electronics made some nice speakers including the Event Opal: but they were bought by Rode which doesn't even have a speaker division: so you'd think they'd keep making speakers: but they just seemed to shut down Event Electronics and never made speakers!
I think once the KH310 is updated and KH420 is updated to have digital calibration the lineup will be pretty great! Though I would suggest AES67 capability in all models and not two different versions. A revised KH750 + KH870 wouldn't hurt though - aka the KH750 has limitations as it was made as a sub for stereo capabilities - aka hooking up two KH80's, so a version more suited for bass management in an atmos system would be preferable.
As far as Cardioid capabilities like Kii/D&D/Mesonovic CDM65: it's quite unique, but lots of studios just have in-wall mounting such as a KH420 soffit mounted: so cardioid wouldn't work anyways. I will admit one of my favorite speakers I've heard are Mesanovic RTM65's though, but haven't owned them - not cardioid, but woofers on the side, so it wouldn't be able to be soffit mounted.
Overall, the number of models/how often revisions occur and the simple fact that some smaller manufacturers may go out of business randomly or be bought out and shut down overnight is something to take into consideration if you plan on buying some expensive speakers or investing in a large surround set.
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My 150's will soon get bass support (again). Subwoofer Cabinets are fully built, just have to solder the cables.
~60 liter with Scan Speak Chassis.
Power amplifier will be a IMG Stage Line wich is already been purchased. I dont know when the DSP Setup will be done by an Homecinema Guy so i think beginning of 2025 is realistic incl professionall Subwoofer Finish (Paint).
And maybe next Year i let build 4 more to realise an Double Bass Array... i will see how good it sounds when all the DSP Work incl Placement is done.
~60 liter with Scan Speak Chassis.
Power amplifier will be a IMG Stage Line wich is already been purchased. I dont know when the DSP Setup will be done by an Homecinema Guy so i think beginning of 2025 is realistic incl professionall Subwoofer Finish (Paint).
And maybe next Year i let build 4 more to realise an Double Bass Array... i will see how good it sounds when all the DSP Work incl Placement is done.
nice
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