Neumann kh 120ii alternatives

[vssyla]

Hi all, i'm an electronic music producer & I've been using kh120ii for the past year. I bought the ma-1 microphone/software to calibrate them to my room.

However, my main concerns with the speakers are their size, and how that limits their bass response/soundstage. Don't get me wrong, they still do amazing for their size, perhaps the best model of any consumer-grade speaker their size. And in terms of adding the kh750... well the sub is overpriced, in my opinion.

I see myself having 2 options:

option 1: buy a cheaper sub, dirac live, and a minidsp, abandoning the ma-1 setup (also this allows me to afford running 2 subs as well, all for less price than the kh750). However, I have trouble getting accurate info on the latency with dirac live + minidsp, but I've heard enough stories about it having so much latency that it's only suitable for home listening. Im one of those producers that works very fast on ableton, constantly stopping and starting clips and fine tuning ms of audio/automation. high latency would ruin my whole workflow.

option 2 (sort of): overpay/overbudget for the kh750, or sell the kh120ii and move to a larger model & brand. I've used subs before (yamaha sub), and they added a great dimension to my music. However, I'm totally a fan of speakers that simply are large enough to cover most of the frequency range (no sub needed). I would need 8 inch cones and above for this, from my experience. an example of large speakers I like are the Event Opals, which extend down to 30hz. The Event Opals are affordable at second hand prices, but, Rode discontinued support for them and their quality control is pretty bad, so I cannot bring myself to buy them.

In summary; I bought the neumann kh120ii's knowing they're best in class for size and punch, but they don't have enough LOW bass. I didn't know the sub was so expensive, and that i'd really need it, and I really do need a sub... I can pair other affordable subs with a different calibration software/hardware, but then I risk latency issues (and etc). Should I go over my budget and get the kh750, or should I move to a setup that can give me more bang for my buck? are there any onboard dsp options for bigger speakers besides genelec/neumann that I can afford?

total budget ~$3000.

 

[Pouyoux]

you can try to replace your kh120ii with KH150 or KH310 and/or add a subwoofer kali audio ws12 (which has a good price-quality ratio).

in your situation I'd begin by adding the sub.

Regarding DSP you've plenty solutions (from less expensive to most) : Equalizer APO (free and if you are using windows only)/REW, topping d50iii, mini dsp/dirac, rme dac. The less you pay the more work you have to do but in the end the result should be the same.

 

[vssyla]

How’s the latency with Dirac live/minidsp? I’ve read some conflicting testimonials (I think one person had 20+ ms).

I currently have the MA-1, and unless Dirac/minidsp has the same/less latency, it would be hard to justify switching over.

 

[Matias]

I would just add a sub from another brand, low pass it where the speakers end, and that's it.

 

[Pouyoux]

my understanding is that minidsp hasn't enough horsepower to handle bass management correctly so i would not use it anyway

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I can not answer your questions, but a few thoughts:
- I would suggest trying out Dirac with your KH120II first with a trial version. So you can compare how you like the result compared to MA1. If MA1 is much better, you maybe don't want to use a different sub. If you are happy with Dirac, you may abandon the MA1 path. I think you can try this without a sub.
- You should check if 1 KH750 will be enough for you. It is a very small sub. I can image for an electronic music producer it could be a bit limited. That depends on how loud you need it to be. You can simply add a second one to the setup, of course, but that may be too expensive?

 

[Pouyoux]

just a thought : did you try to play with the "output level' switch behind your KH ?

 

[Ellebob]

A couple questions.

How comfortable are you with taking measurements and making adjustments for EQ?
The mini DSP is fine for latency without Dirac. I haven't used it with Dirac so I can't comment on using it with that. But if you use the parametric EQ it is not a problem if everything is going through it. Whether you use a mini-DSP or an EQ APO/plugi in, EQ is required to get accurate bass. The WS12 is one of the best bang for the bucks I have seen for subs and its performance. You will have to spend more time measuring and adjusting EQ.

Do you only listen at one position or are their other people listening as well?
If it is only you, one sub will be fine if everything is in a good location. Two or more subs are more about getting a similar bass response for all seats in the seating area. If you only have one seat, one sub is fine.

IF needed are you willing to move your console/seating?
Depending on your seating location. If you re sitting in a null, it is tougher to get the bass correct. You can EQ peaks but you can't always EQ dips in the response, depends what is causing the dip. Often the easiest fix is moving the seat(s) and sub(s). If that is not possible, two (or more) subs can help but placing them well is important. Unfortunately, EQ is not a magic bullet and can't correct all problems in the frequency response. This is what I do for work and when we design recording studios or HTs we start with seating placement in the design.

 

[ehabheikal]

Why is latency an issue with minidsp, it manages the sub and the mains so the latency will be the same for both making it a non issue.

 

[Ellebob]

Why is latency an issue with minidsp, it manages the sub and the mains so the latency will be the same for both making it a non issue.

That is correct unless mixing audio with video then it can be a problem. It can also be a problem if integrating with other audio not going through the mini-DSP. Depends what type of mixing is being done.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

I’m an electronic music producer and used to own KH120s too.

I upgraded them to Amphion One15s about 5 years ago. They don’t have more bass than the KH120s but I find it clearer and easier to differentiate.

I also run Dirac live. I don’t notice any latency. I run it as a plugin hosted in Audiojack so it operates system wide and corrects everything that goes out my SSL audio interface.

Since I got Dirac live, around 2 years ago, I have had success integrating my little Adam Sub 7 with the One15s.

That said, for forensic sub information I use Slate VSX headphones which I HIGHLY recommend. I can hear very clearly adjustments made in the 35-60hz region that are harder to hear clearly on my monitors and sub that don’t go down below 45 or so accurately.

My last track was mixed on both VSX and One15s with the Sub7. The majority of mix decisions in the bass region were done on VSX in the Mike Dean Farfield monitors.

When sent away for mastering they used no corrective EQ and the track got picked up by a label that week. Its dub techno so bass is critical.

 

[staticV3]

option 1: buy a cheaper sub, dirac live, and a minidsp, abandoning the ma-1 setup (also this allows me to afford running 2 subs as well, all for less price than the kh750). However, I have trouble getting accurate info on the latency with dirac live + minidsp, but I've heard enough stories about it having so much latency that it's only suitable for home listening. Im one of those producers that works very fast on ableton, constantly stopping and starting clips and fine tuning ms of audio/automation. high latency would ruin my whole workflow.

The iLoud ARC Studio is optimized for studio work with 1.4ms of additional latency.

There's an excellent review of it by Julian Krause: https://youtu.be/4rSpCrZrK9Q