Neumann KH-120 II vs Genelec 8030c for casual desktop use

[lowkeyoperations]

I use a Douk Audio U2 usb to SPDIF adapter to connect my Mac Mini digitally to my active Dynaudio speakers. It does its job perfectly and I did think it sounded better than going out the Mac mini 3.5 mm output into the Dynaudio analogue input.

I used to have KH120s on my desk and thought they sounded really nice.

You will want room correction software, or at minimum some eq to reduce the effects of desk reflections around the 150hz region. Bass traps and room treatment won’t fix that.

 

[Halbknapp]

I can answer the Question about the sound difference of KH120 II to the Genelec 8341 I guess as I have these Genelecs and a pair of Neumann KH150 which are very similar to the KH120 II. In general Neumann makes everything right/neutral but you can hear that they emit more low frequency energy then high frequency to all off axis angles so the typical reflections sound dark and dull. The Genelecs in general and the Ones in particular have a wider high frequency radiation (shallower shaped wave guide) and more narrow mid frequency radiation (with the 2 woofers of the the ones).

In my living room that is not well treated but filled with a lot of stuff I placed both in the middle of the room to measure and play music. The Genelec 8341 sounded wonderful but a little bright. The KH150 sounded awfully dull. With some EQ the and much more so in the nearfield you can make them sounding more similar but the general trend stays the same.

In any situation all speakers should have room correction as the lower frequency resonances will be problematic. KH120 II can do that, Genelec 8341 or 8330 can do that but 8030c would need something with DSP/EQ in front of it.

Another remark is about bass performance - judging by the KH150 it is safe to assume that the KH120 II will also put out substantial better/cleaner bass then the Genelecs. The port design of Neumann is just awesome in allowing low distorted bass and the woofers are really really good. The Genelec are just "normal" monitors in terms of bass and not on the same league as Neumann - port cuffing if the port has to do heavy work, more distortion if played loud.

So like I read before here - I too would get a Genelec with Sub (and external DSP for EQ as well as any measurement mic) if possible, if it has to be on its own and somewhat nearfield listened to get the KH120 II with measurement mic.

 

[kharan]

I can answer the Question about the sound difference of KH120 II to the Genelec 8341 I guess as I have these Genelecs and a pair of Neumann KH150 which are very similar to the KH120 II. In general Neumann makes everything right/neutral but you can hear that they emit more low frequency energy then high frequency to all off axis angles so the typical reflections sound dark and dull. The Genelecs in general and the Ones in particular have a wider high frequency radiation (shallower shaped wave guide) and more narrow mid frequency radiation (with the 2 woofers of the the ones).

In my living room that is not well treated but filled with a lot of stuff I placed both in the middle of the room to measure and play music. The Genelec 8341 sounded wonderful but a little bright. The KH150 sounded awfully dull. With some EQ the and much more so in the nearfield you can make them sounding more similar but the general trend stays the same.

In any situation all speakers should have room correction as the lower frequency resonances will be problematic. KH120 II can do that, Genelec 8341 or 8330 can do that but 8030c would need something with DSP/EQ in front of it.

Another remark is about bass performance - judging by the KH150 it is safe to assume that the KH120 II will also put out substantial better/cleaner bass then the Genelecs. The port design of Neumann is just awesome in allowing low distorted bass and the woofers are really really good. The Genelec are just "normal" monitors in terms of bass and not on the same league as Neumann - port cuffing if the port has to do heavy work, more distortion if played loud.

So like I read before here - I too would get a Genelec with Sub (and external DSP for EQ as well as any measurement mic) if possible, if it has to be on its own and somewhat nearfield listened to get the KH120 II with measurement mic.

Any chance that the Neumann can be improved by toeing the speakers out to increase the amount of reflected sound vs direct sound?

 

[Halbknapp]

Any chance that the Neumann can be improved by toeing the speakers out to increase the amount of reflected sound vs direct sound?

Propably this would work to some degree but I have not tried (toeing out and adding eq to boost the high frequency output).

 

[Miguelón]

I understand that, been in this business a long time. I don't have an explanation for you except there is something different in their circuity between their home model and pro model. Get them both and try it.

I have both 8030C and G Three at home, G Three sound slightly better. I think there is because its by default gain goes at 96 dB @ 1V and matches very well an around 8 dBu RCA 2 volts signal (goes just to the max SPL with 0 dBFS in the DAC.

No need to attenuation on signal adding an intermediate gain stage. Whereas with XLR I should go to the preamp mode and attenuate voltage or reduce digital volume.

With 8030C the situation is even worse, since its by default sensitivity is 106 dB @ 1V, I should use the gain knob on the minimum or the preamp mode again. And this time by 16 dB less instead of 10

It was suggested that this has no audible impact, but honestly I feel a little suck of tone when attenuating the signal. More on the Genelec knob than on the interface one, despite the common sense that says me when attenuating on the input side I reduce noise.

Having the opportunity of keeping one of both, I prefer the simplest and direct path DAC => amp instead of DAC => preamp => amp

 

[tamtam]

Since you're unable to listen to them, there's no point in discussing the sound. Even if someone says the Genelecs sound better, it's subjective, and you'll never know for sure unless you listen to both. Let's focus on the facts. Neumann is a similarly high-quality brand, offering more versatile package:
Lower bass response: an obvious benefit
Room correction: essential in a non-perfectly treated room
Digital input: saves money on an expensive DA converter
I think the choice is clear, unless you don't need all of the above.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Genelecs sound better *to me *
But Neumanns are more practical because of the reasons in the comment above.
So it's a hard choice

 

[Miguelón]

Since you're unable to listen to them, there's no point in discussing the sound. Even if someone says the Genelecs sound better, it's subjective, and you'll never know for sure unless you listen to both. Let's focus on the facts. Neumann is a similarly high-quality brand, offering more versatile package:
Lower bass response: an obvious benefit
Room correction: essential in a non-perfectly treated room
Digital input: saves money on an expensive DA converter
I think the choice is clear, unless you don't need all of the above.

Price is nor equal, Neumann KH 120 ii are about 300€ per pair more expensive than Genelecs, and to use their DSP one has to buy the MA-1 mic and expending another 300€.

A Topping D30 pro can add 350€ to the Genelecs and is one of the best DAC ever measured.

Apart from the price, no one can doubt that KH 120 ii is most recent and better speaker.

P.S: in fact I regret a little bit not having keep the KH 120 ii when I tried it. I didn’t made any room corrections, bass sounded awful on the place I put it (over a table). Now having floor stands and a PEQ perhaps I would reverse and take the Neumann instead of Genelec

 

[tamtam]

Price is nor equal, Neumann KH 120 ii are about 300€ per pair more expensive than Genelecs...

It looks like the opposite. You're probably comparing prices in your local market.

Genelec 8030C (single)

Combine power with precision to meet the most demanding requirements

www.sudeepaudio.com

Neumann KH 120 II EU KC (single)

an upgraded monitor - with just the SPDIF connection

www.sudeepaudio.com

Edit: or you are looking at the KH 120 with AES67 which are more expensive.

 

[unpluggged]

to use their DSP one has to buy the MA-1 mic and expending another 300€

Wrong. DSP is always active, regardless of whether you use the MA 1 suite or not. The latter is used only for room EQ, which technically can be implemented using any other measurement system by writing EQ values manually using third-party software like the khtool.

 

[tamtam]

Wrong. DSP is always active, regardless of whether you use the MA 1 suite or not. The latter is used only for room EQ, which technically can be implemented using any other measurement system by writing EQ values manually using third-party software like the khtool.

Could you provide a reference to the khtool? I'm curious how many bands it has.
Nevermind, found it.

 

[Miguelón]

It looks like the opposite. You're probably comparing prices in your local market.

Genelec 8030C (single)

Combine power with precision to meet the most demanding requirements

www.sudeepaudio.com

Neumann KH 120 II EU KC (single)

an upgraded monitor - with just the SPDIF connection

www.sudeepaudio.com

Edit: or you are looking at the KH 120 with AES67 which are more expensive.

No, in my region (Spain so EU market), KH 120 ii are 720€ each and 8030C are 560€ per unit.

Sorry, I didn’t considered other markets, since both are from european brands.

In that case, and given the mentioned fact that internal DSP is accessible by third party software, one can consider both on the same price range.

When I tried the Neumann I paid 800€ since it was recently released and if I remember correctly the DSP worked only with Neumann’s software and mic (I’m pretty sure, were some complaints about that, but still have a doubt)

 

[unpluggged]

Could you provide a reference to the khtool? I'm curious how many bands it has.

It has no "bands"; it's just a tool to access the filter parameters of Neumann DSP speakers.

DSP worked only with Neumann’s software and mic

Again, the DSP works with no external software or hardware. That's the whole point in having DSP integrated into speakers. The MA 1 kit is only needed for room correction. And its price is comparable to other measurement solutions.

 

[tamtam]

It has no "bands"; it's just a tool to access the filter parameters of Neumann DSP speakers.


Again, the DSP works with no external software or hardware. That's the whole point in having DSP integrated into speakers. The MA 1 kit is only needed for room correction. And its price is comparable to other measurement solutions.

I think we both understand how this works, it's just the way we describe it is not technically accurate on purpose.
While the khtool script is a nice trick accessing the DSP functionality on the speaker,
it is not an official tool with all the disadvantages (and maybe advantages),
something that needs to be mentioned.

 

[unpluggged]

While the khtool script is a nice trick accessing the DSP functionality on the speaker,
it is not an official tool with all the disadvantages (and maybe advantages),
something that needs to be mentioned.

1) I said it's third-party software in the first place;
2) it uses the official software protocol published by the vendor (the SSC), and it's not a "trick";
3) it's open-source and well-documented.

I really don't get your point here. Just try it out yourself and see how it works.

Besides, I don't suggest to use it instead of MA 1, just mentioned it as an example of a tool to access the filter values of the speaker.

Here is another project: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-sennheiser-sound-control-protocol-ssc.38607/

 

[jhaider]

It has no "bands"; it's just a tool to access the filter parameters of Neumann DSP speakers.


Again, the DSP works with no external software or hardware. That's the whole point in having DSP integrated into speakers. The MA 1 kit is only needed for room correction. And its price is comparable to other measurement solutions.

Isn’t it just $200 or $250, something like that? And not really a kit - just a nice microphone that you can also use to measure anything with REW once you’ve set up the monitors. The software itself is free, or was at least.

 

[tamtam]

My point here is that MA 1 is an official software, it will work, and simple to use.
khtool may or may not work for him for various reasons.
Something that the topic starter needs to take into a consideration.

 

[unpluggged]

My point here is that MA 1 is an official software, it will work, and simple to use.
khtool may or may not work for him for various reasons.
Something that the topic starter needs to take into a consideration.

The MA 1 kit is optional (and it worth its price). The 8030C does not offer any room correction facilities, so I hardly consider the MA 1 being a separate purchase a disadvantage (and the GLM kit is also a separate purchase). Not to mention that the KH 120 II is way superior out of the box.

And I really, really don't understand what exactly are you trying to prove to me. Originally I was pointing out that the MA 1 kit is not required to benefit from most aspects of DSP design of the KH 120 II and the KH 150 when another member said the opposite.

 

[Miguelón]

Again, the DSP works with no external software or hardware.

Excuse me, I don’t express properly.

What I mean is that to use the DSP with a PEQ I thought there is no other option that via the MA 1 system.

My Genelecs have no DSP but my WiiM Ultra do the job perfectly. In the MA 1 software you cannot handle manually the parameters, only adjusting the target curve.

Do the software you mentioned has a PEQ?

 

[tamtam]

And I really, really don't understand what exactly are you trying to prove to me.

You asked for my point, and I provided clarification. Does anything I said seem like I'm challenging you? If so, that wasn’t my intent.