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Neumann 7.2.4 Hometheater Layout ?

FrantzM

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This layout is possible, but depends on priorities.
You need to understand all the use cases and real required SPL (including any headroom required for DRC correction if needed), then decide.
All active monitors have protection and barely will be damaged, but KH310 are still nearfields and I see no reason to use them if they will be constantly driven to distortion.
I think it's better to consult professional installation company.
Hi

After reading many replies on this thread and the last one I have to revise my position just a bit. The Neuman KH 310 are superior to my speakers and they may play loud. They are however nearfield monitors... That caveat remains.
On a whim , I put the movies "6 Feet underground" and got this:
1625328668888.png


Notice the maximum on the needle .. it was a peak of 115.6 dB ... The whole thing was stupendously loud: My ears are still ringing. I will never subject myself willfully to such again...
I seat much closer at about 9ft , I have included a picture of my seating position. I would say that at those levels, whatever amount of distortion and there had to be plenty, was masked/drowned by the signal levels. Perhaps better speakers with less THD could have let me enjoy this... I don't truly believe so. It wasn't pleasant.
1625328910921.png


One could debate the accuracy on the App on my iPad .. But ..
 

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vince32837

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Wow! thread took off overnight..SPL vs distance....

Well if I go back to post #2 (abdo 123) @ 100 Hz I'm at about 100 db SPL for 1 meter distance 1% THD.
Look at this interesting article from Axiom audio-
https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/distortion
They did a controlled experimental environment using blind and non-blind listening tests with a group of listeners ranging in age from 22 to 60.

Nobody could detect THD below 1% with real music content...

Based on the above article...

100dB at 1m
94dB at 2m
88dB at 4m...still plenty loud??

Could move chairs inward, reduce screen size...

90% of the time, if the wife comes in the room, playing this loud is over...

And for 10% as long as 310s can handle .8-1% THD for few hrs here and there, I might be ok?
 

abdo123

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Hi

After reading many replies on this thread and the last one I have to revise my position just a bit. The Neuman KH 310 are superior to my speakers and they may play loud. They are however nearfield monitors... THat caveat remains.
On a whim , I pust themovies feet under on my BD player and go this:
View attachment 138893

Notice the maximum on the needede .. it was a peak of 115.6 dB ... The whole thing was stupendously loud: My ears are still ringing. I will never subject myself willfully to such again...
I seat much closer than 16 ft, I have included a picture of my seating position. I wold say that at those levels whatever distortion there was and there had to be plenty was drowned by the levels. Perhaps better speakers with less THD could have let me enjoy this... I don't truly believe so. It wasn't pleasant.
View attachment 138895

One could debate the accuracy on the App on my iPad .. But ..

Avg levels of 90 dB is honestly very scary. Wtf is that movie?

if that's true then you're at least listening 50% louder than you're supposed to (considering 10 dB is a doubling of loudness).
 
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FrantzM

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6 Feet Under on Netflix ...

I listened for a few seconds ... Could not take it for much longer .. Completely unscientific. I just raised the volume to a point where I read those.. It showed 90 on the Volume scale. Took a screenshot and ...
I did not calibrate a "reference" level on my system...
 
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vince32837

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Frantz,

You went above and beyond!! Thanks for measuring your setup...
 

Sancus

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Which is why, as a complete surround noob, I supposed that only those 3 front channels received the same signal.

The part you're missing is that multiple speakers don't receive the same signal in multi-channel film/tv most of the time. The center channel has most of the signal, and the rest of the speakers have less. Dialogue and main sound effects are almost always center channel. The other channels will vary entirely based on what directional effects are desired. So in any case there's no simple sum reinforcement that you can rely on unlike stereo or even multi-channel music to some extent.

Calibration is automatic by any decent AVR, Audyssey for example calibrates each channel to 75dB = -30dBFS. The sum of any channels is never considered at any point.

the same level you measured at 2m but 6 dB lower, everytime the distance doubles you substract 6 dB.

This is a common misconception that persists because of its simplicity. Sound only drops by 6dB in an empty field outdoors or an anechoic chamber. In a real room, it's more like 3-4dB. Toole explains how to calculate this here. Of course, the exact amount varies, which is why you have to calibrate with a microphone in the first place and you can't just use the distance.

I listened for a few seconds ... Could not take it for much longer .. Completely unscientific. I just raised the volume to a point where I read those.. It showed 90 on the Volume scale. Took a screenshot and ...
I did not calibrate a "reference" level on my system...

I'm confused what you're trying to show. Any good AVR with a mic will calibrate levels/distance to some standard. "90" on my Denon X4500H, when switched to the dB scale, would mean +10dB over reference for example. But without a calibration you have no way of representing anything. Reference/0dB is never maximum volume, that's usually about +20dB.

And for 10% as long as 310s can handle .8-1% THD for few hrs here and there, I might be ok?

The only channel that's going to be an issue here is the center. The KH310 is capable of about 103-105dB anechoic at 10% distortion and 100-450hz. This is going to be your limiting range(or whatever lower bound for your sub crossover). Because it's not in a corner, it will only get half-space boundary gain, so you can raise that number to ~109dB(103+6). At 5m, that SPL will be reduced by around 6.75 - 10dB depending on your room characteristics. So 99-102dB will be reached at 10% THD, short of the 105dB peaks. This is why I said this will be fine for -5dB, or Dolby suggested loudness of 79-82dB. It is borderline above that. You will exceed 10% distortion at times, or potentially hit the limiter, I don't know when it kicks in.

This may be acceptable, it may not, that's up to you. It's certainly not a very severe limitation IMO but some people want to be able to hit reference with headroom and never have to think about any limits. For that, you would need a bigger speaker.
 

FrantzM

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The part you're missing is that multiple speakers don't receive the same signal in multi-channel film/tv most of the time. The center channel has most of the signal, and the rest of the speakers have less. Dialogue and main sound effects are almost always center channel. The other channels will vary entirely based on what directional effects are desired. So in any case there's no simple sum reinforcement that you can rely on unlike stereo or even multi-channel music to some extent.

Calibration is automatic by any decent AVR, Audyssey for example calibrates each channel to 75dB = -30dBFS. The sum of any channels is never considered at any point.



This is a common misconception that persists because of its simplicity. Sound only drops by 6dB in an empty field outdoors or an anechoic chamber. In a real room, it's more like 3-4dB. Toole explains how to calculate this here. Of course, the exact amount varies, which is why you have to calibrate with a microphone in the first place and you can't just use the distance.



I'm confused what you're trying to show. Any good AVR with a mic will calibrate levels/distance to some standard. "90" on my Denon X4500H, when switched to the dB scale, would mean +10dB over reference for example. But without a calibration you have no way of representing anything. Reference/0dB is never maximum volume, that's usually about +20dB.



The only channel that's going to be an issue here is the center. The KH310 is capable of about 103-105dB anechoic at 10% distortion and 100-450hz. This is going to be your limiting range(or whatever lower bound for your sub crossover). Because it's not in a corner, it will only get half-space boundary gain, so you can raise that number to ~109dB(103+6). At 5m, that SPL will be reduced by around 6.75 - 10dB depending on your room characteristics. So 99-102dB will be reached at 10% THD, short of the 105dB peaks. This is why I said this will be fine for -5dB, or Dolby suggested loudness of 79-82dB. It is borderline above that. You will exceed 10% distortion at times, or potentially hit the limiter, I don't know when it kicks in.

This may be acceptable, it may not, that's up to you. It's certainly not a very severe limitation IMO but some people want to be able to hit reference with headroom and never have to think about any limits. For that, you would need a bigger speaker.

I can only love this forum and it’s people! This post concurs with @abdo123 post
My AVR3400 was calibrated with Audyssey and indeed hell broke lose when I raised the volume to “90”. I was listening 10 dB above reference. I am now listening to music, max SPL on same app 72 dB
I learned a lot on this thread. Thanks people.
 
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