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Neumann 7.2.4 Hometheater Layout ?

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#1
Hi ASR,

Been enjoying reading the posts on ASR for some time. First post on the site. I'm building a new house with a dedicated theater. The room is 22' deep x 17' wide w/ 9' 4" ceiling. I was originally planning on a PSA or JTR speaker setup...But then I read powerful Neumann KH 310 monitor review. The precision and accuracy of true sound.

What about a 7.2.4 layout.....7 x Neumann KH310 + 2 PSA Subs + 4 X KH120 for ATMOS?
I drew the room up in chief architect....I'm no CAD guy but you get the idea...

I looked at the KH310 manual, don't be further than 6meters ...(19.7 FT) on paper! I have never heard a Neumann monitor in -person
Of course I have to properly treat the room...bass traps in corners, absorb 1st reflection points, front wall , maybe ceiling etc

But for those who have heard them,, or own them now, will this setup deliver reference level clarity in that room for both movies and music?
or
I'm asking too much, they were meant for 12 x 10 ft sound studio with a desk 6 ft away from MLP.


Thank You
Vince (Florida)
 

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abdo123

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#2
Hi, looks like you have a great plan ahead! I'm not sure how loud the Neumann KH 310s can go but ~5 meters is a pretty long distance.

Headroom is very important for home cinema as you don't want the climax of the movie to be muddy or wonky. looks like right now you need the speakers to play pretty loud.

for the KH 310, Max. SPL in full space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 100 Hz and 6 kHz) is 110.3 dB SPL, which in your distances would be 96-97 dBSPL at the listening position.

and it looks like it's compressing way earlier for the bass as Bass capability, Max. SPL in half space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz), is 106.8 dBSPL.




1625263412924.png


Have you considered something like the Revel F208 instead for such distances? with the necessary amplifier power?
 

Dimifoot

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#3
The 310s should be positioned at a maximum of 3 meters of your Main Listening Position.
Maybe move your couch forwards?
 
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Thread Starter #4
Well...I listen at normal levels..sometimes little above reference...but not ear bleed..

The subs will take care of 10-100 Hz...the 310s will have to cover 120hz on up....

Abdo123...thanks for reply
 

abdo123

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#5
Well...I listen at normal levels..sometimes little above reference...but not ear bleed..

The subs will take care of 10-100 Hz...the 310s will have to cover 120hz on up....

Abdo123...thanks for reply
yes but the THX cinema reference says that peaks of 105 dB at the listening position should be possible on speakers (115 dB on subwoofers).

so to answer your question:

will this setup deliver reference level clarity in that room for both movies and music?
no the KH310s are not enough at such distances.
 
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Thread Starter #6
Trying to keep screen big as possible that's reason 16 ft distance..

Thanks Dimifoot
 

FrantzM

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#7
Hi
I do understand all the calculations involved. In the real world however, 7 KH 310 + 4 KH 120 + 2 Subs blasting in this room will be enough ...
With lesser speakers (3 LSR 308 + 2 LSR 305 + 2 JBL Stage something + Dayton SUB-1500) I've reached 110 dB on "Interstellar" measured with an IOS App ... It was unbearably loud...
@vince32837 , I am certain you'll reach levels that are uncomfortable and frankly unhealthy with such a complement of speakers.

I may measure tonight but I am not promising .. It is not pleasurable to push my system that loud ... I'll close the door and push it to see how loud it goes .. Perhaps...
 

jhaider

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#8
Trying to keep screen big as possible that's reason 16 ft distance.
I personally would choose seating distance from the front wall based on bass smoothness in room. You won’t know that until it’s built and you hear/feel/measure it…

SPL should be fine IMO.

The main issue I see with your approach is practical - are you prepared to run both low voltage and power to four spots in your ceiling? IMO when you get to multichannel the better approach is to centralize the amplification. Then you just have to run low voltage to the speakers.
 

abdo123

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#9
Hi
I do understand all the calculations involved. In the real world however, 7 KH 310 + 4 KH 120 + 2 Subs blasting in this room will be enough ...
With lesser speakers (3 LSR 308 + 2 LSR 305 + 2 JBL Stage something + Dayton SUB-1500) I've reached 110 dB on "Interstellar" measured with an IOS App ... It was unbearably loud... I believe you'll reach levels that are uncomfortable and frankly unhealthy with such a complement of speakers.

I may measure tonight but I am not promising .. It is not pleasurable to push my system that loud ... I'll close the door and push it to see how loud it goes .. Perhaps...
the only time peaks sounded bad to me when my system was incapable of producing such peaks. Keep in mind that -20dBFS is 85 dBSPL, so if you recorded 110 dB the composer and director literally intended for you to hear the loudest volume they can digitally dish out to you. It probably sounded horrible because of compression, distortion, .etc not necessarily because of how bad it is.

The OP was asking about reference quality, these standards are fairly well established and the 310s will not cut it unfortunately.
 
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#10
the only time peaks sounded bad to me when my system was incapable of producing such peaks. Keep in mind that -20dBFS is 85 dBSPL, so if you recorded 110 dB the composer and director literally intended for you to hear the loudest volume they can digitally dish out to you. It probably sounded horrible because of compression, distortion, .etc not ne cessarily because of how bad it is.

The OP was asking about reference quality, these standards are fairly well established and the 310s will not cut it unfortunately.
I agree.
It's not really their intended purpose. Using them in a home theater will keep them operating past their comfort zone IMO.
I would stick with JTR's at least for the front 3 for greater impact and headroom.
 
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Thread Starter #11
Gentleman...thanks for all your inputs..
I was hoping for the FrantzM response...
"More than enough"

The home will be coming up on the framing stage soon, go traditional speaker route, just route 12 or 16 awg speaker wire vs Neumann route, 4 ceiling power outlets plus 7 bed layer outlets....

Could have wifi controlled outlets??
So they are not on all the time...

Probably need find someone in southeast USA, that I could hear a Neumann demo...

Vince
 

Sancus

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#12
Keep in mind that -20dBFS is 85 dBSPL, so if you recorded 110 dB the composer and director literally intended for you to hear the loudest volume they can digitally dish out to you.
Interstellar is a Nolan film, therefore 5.1 only, and so the loudest possible would be 10log10(10^10.5*5 + 10^11.5) or 116.8dB SPL. Assuming that was measured as dbZ, it could be mostly bass which would track since Nolan loves his absolutely overwhelming and excessive bass to a degree that annoys many viewers.

If L/R are really that close to the corners, they'll get quarter space boundary reinforcement, so the only channel I'd be concerned about having enough SPL in this situation is the center. It's borderline, but, probably fine depending on the listening levels.

Well...I listen at normal levels..sometimes little above reference...but not ear bleed..
Do you actually mean 0dB on an AVR after calibration or above? Because that's really loud. Most people can't tolerate 85dB reference in a small room. It's not recommended by Dolby, either. If you really like to go at and above 85dB SPL then a KH310 may not be satisfying as center speaker in this setup. However, at -5 it would be totally fine.
 

richard12511

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#13
Well...I listen at normal levels..sometimes little above reference...but not ear bleed..

The subs will take care of 10-100 Hz...the 310s will have to cover 120hz on up....

Abdo123...thanks for reply
"Normal levels" and "a little above reference" are kinda oxymorons. "Reference" means 105db peaks for each individual speaker(far above that for measured combined output) at the listening position, and the KH310's are probably not capable of that. "a little above reference" would be even louder, and most likely take dedicated HT speakers from the likes of JTR/Danley/JBL. Almost no hifi or normal studio monitors are capable of reference output at 5m. You need the types of speakers that cinemas use.
 
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richard12511

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If you really do want cinema reference level, I would take a look at the JTR 212RT for LCR(surround you don't need them). They measure very well(not quite as well as the KH310), and have very narrow dispersion(which works well for 5m distance) and can easily hit cinema reference level.

I have 212RTs in my theater room and Genelec 8351bs in my main multichannel room(3.5m). I've compared the two in my main multichannel room, and the 8351bs (imo) beat the JTRs at 3.5m for the loudest volumes I care to listen. I don't listen at cinema reference level, though, and I'm not at 5m. I think the KH310 probably sound very similar to the 8351b.

I edited my previous post(to use an spl meter), as I don't think it's great advice. When you go to the IMAX cinema, do you think it's too loud(most people do)?
 
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Thread Starter #15
About 5 years ago, I had JTR 215RT X3 + JTR 228 x 4...it was a potent setup!!! Job relocation, forced house sale, and JTR were part of the sale unfortunately...now JTR prices have increased significantly since then...I never heard 212RT, they say they are super sensitive, 2-3watts all you need??

Thanks for all the inputs...
 

richard12511

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#16
About 5 years ago, I had JTR 215RT X3 + JTR 228 x 4...it was a potent setup!!! Job relocation, forced house sale, and JTR were part of the sale unfortunately...now JTR prices have increased significantly since then...I never heard 212RT, they say they are super sensitive, 2-3watts all you need??

Thanks for all the inputs...
Yes. The JTR prices have increased (due to covid) by $400, and I'm not a fan. The 212RT are his most sensitive speakers (101dB sensitivity), and they've been measured by a third party. They measure very well. It's a tough question. I don't listen at 5m(so just guessing), but I think the KH310 is probably a better speaker than the 212RT up until -10 or -5 on a typical AVR. I tend to think that most people don't listen as close to cinema reference as they think they do(most listen much lower).
 
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q3cpma

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#17
Hi, looks like you have a great plan ahead! I'm not sure how loud the Neumann KH 310s can go but ~5 meters is a pretty long distance.

Headroom is very important for home cinema as you don't want the climax of the movie to be muddy or wonky. looks like right now you need the speakers to play pretty loud.

for the KH 310, Max. SPL in full space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 100 Hz and 6 kHz) is 110.3 dB SPL, which in your distances would be 96-97 dBSPL at the listening position.

and it looks like it's compressing way earlier for the bass as Bass capability, Max. SPL in half space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz), is 106.8 dBSPL.




View attachment 138758

Have you considered something like the Revel F208 instead for such distances? with the necessary amplifier power?
This graph is for one speaker in full space (without any boundary gain). With three (unless I don't understand how ATMOS work), you gain 9 dB SPL of headroom; at least in the bass, where the signal is mostly mono and where the SPL limitation is.
Someone corrects me on my 9 dB, I actually don't know the exact number. It's 6 for a pair, right?

Hi ASR,

Been enjoying reading the posts on ASR for some time. First post on the site. I'm building a new house with a dedicated theater. The room is 22' deep x 17' wide w/ 9' 4" ceiling. I was originally planning on a PSA or JTR speaker setup...But then I read powerful Neumann KH 310 monitor review. The precision and accuracy of true sound.

What about a 7.2.4 layout.....7 x Neumann KH310 + 2 PSA Subs + 4 X KH120 for ATMOS?
I drew the room up in chief architect....I'm no CAD guy but you get the idea...

I looked at the KH310 manual, don't be further than 6meters ...(19.7 FT) on paper! I have never heard a Neumann monitor in -person
Of course I have to properly treat the room...bass traps in corners, absorb 1st reflection points, front wall , maybe ceiling etc

But for those who have heard them,, or own them now, will this setup deliver reference level clarity in that room for both movies and music?
or
I'm asking too much, they were meant for 12 x 10 ft sound studio with a desk 6 ft away from MLP.


Thank You
Vince (Florida)
Personally, I think it'll be okay with the subs, but you can always consider the KH420A or Genelec S360 for the front channels.


 
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abdo123

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#18
This graph is for one speaker in full space (without any boundary gain). With three (unless I don't understand how ATMOS work), you gain 9 dB SPL of headroom; at least in the bass, where the signal is mostly mono and where the SPL limitation is.
Someone corrects me on my 9 dB, I actually don't know the exact number. It's 6 for a pair, right?


Personally, I think it'll be okay with the subs, but you can always consider the KH420A or Genelec S360 for the front channels.


Your calculations are correct, it's just that each speaker (and corresponding amp) should be capable of 105 dB peaks for 'reference' quality. it's stupid and it's not easy but that's how it is.
 

q3cpma

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#19
Your calculations are correct, it's just that each speaker (and corresponding amp) should be capable of 105 dB peaks for 'reference' quality. it's stupid and it's not easy but that's how it is.
It doesn't make sense, please explain why. I'm pretty sure that THX reference level is something about SPL at the listening point.
 

abdo123

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#20
@vince32837

You seem to be under the impression that you're going to sacrifice performance with passive floor standers, but that's far from the truth to be honest.

Preference Rating for KH 310
SCORE: 6.2
SCORE w/ sub: 7.6


Preference Rating for Revel F208
SCORE: 6.6
SCORE w/ sub: 7.7


not only do the revels perform (slightly) better, but also they will have a lot more headroom for DSP, as no driver/amplifier headroom has been invested to reach that performace.

If you're concerned about the amplifier investment then I would just drive them with what your receiver has as a start, with 89dB/2.833V sensitivity they should work pretty well as a start.
 
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