I really don't know why you suppose that Pass can't tell the sound differences among the the many, many different designs he has developed.
And yet he has never demonstrated such. Nor is he ever likely to.
I really don't know why you suppose that Pass can't tell the sound differences among the the many, many different designs he has developed.
I really don't know why you suppose that Pass can't tell the sound differences among the the many, many different designs he has developed.
Take 3-4 minutes and read my recent amp review here ... https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/23/235714.html ... you will, of course, scoff at my evaluation method and conclusions.
... Or you could actually listen to a Pass amp or two for a few hours.When claiming something, we usually resort to sticking to the null hypothesis (the one who does not claim any change) and test if there is a change. Until Pass proves himself in a third-party, scrutinized and repeatable test with enough positive evidence that he can hear the difference, we believe he cannot detect the differences.
Are my ears better than an AP analyzer? I don't think so (even though I'm able to hear 20 kHz {I'm only 21}). Also, why do you shift the burden of proof onto me? Whomever is making the positive claim (Pass can hear a difference {the alternative hypothesis}) must prove their hypothesis correct.... Or you could actually listen to a Pass amp or two for a few hours.
... So this sounds like some medical doctors I've heard of. Describe your symptoms and if s/heProbably because it contradicts a century of psychoacoustic research, doesn’t show up on measurement equipment far more sensitive than human hearing, and has never been demonstrated scientifically.
Oh no, sir, I don't claim my ears are better than an AP analyser. In fact I'm pretty much stone deaf above 10 kHz. But whereas I might have bit of a hearing deficit, I don't have a listening deficit.Are my ears better than an AP analyzer? I don't think so (even though I'm able to hear 20 kHz {I'm only 21}). Also, why do you shift the burden of proof onto me? Whomever is making the positive claim (Pass can hear a difference {the alternative hypothesis}) must prove their hypothesis correct.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that humans have limits? Our hearing isn't better than machines at judging objective qualities you can measure in equipment, were pretty bad assessing multiple types of distortion and noise, something a cheap oscilloscope can do orders of magnitude better than us. There is personal preference, but the deltas needed to be able to clearly distinguish between devices have to be huge (and for electronic gear, they have to be fundamentally broken compared to the standard). There's no magical properties in sound that cannot be measured, we can measure all of the physical properties of audio. We can measure fidelity to the source.
So why use an amp to add distortion? I can build something that can add those kinds of distortion and make the adjustable, heck, they even are used in music mixing as plugins. You can control them as you like, and you don't need to have the fixed amount a designer allows you to have. You can have this for far cheaper than any of the "audiophile" amps, and you can set them at your pleasure, not trusting in what this guy thinks sounds good. By the way, you can measure all of that as well.Actually some measurements show up differences that correlated to human preferences. 2nd & 3rd harmonic distortions are pleasant sound whereas harmonics of 4th order and higher are increasingly discordant and unpleasant. Designers such as Pass and Curl, (so disdained hereabouts), know this and have designed equipment accordingly; (see Amir's test of the Parasound JC2 preamp). On the audiophile extreme are SET lovers. These tube amps produce copious amounts of 2nd order distortion in particular and very little higher order distortion. SET's aren't to my taste, but to me that only proves the relevance of subjectivity.
Right! You're talking about Guitar amps. That's what tubes are for! And it's where distortion is valued.So why use an amp to add distortion? I can build something that can add those kinds of distortion and make the adjustable, heck, they even are used in music mixing as plugins. You can control them as you like, and you don't need to have the fixed amount a designer allows you to have.
Well, depends on the amp. Some aren't exactly inexpensive.You can have this for far cheaper than any of the "audiophile" amps,
Oh no, sir, I don't claim my ears are better than an AP analyser. In fact I'm pretty much stone deaf above 10 kHz. But whereas I might have bit of a hearing deficit, I don't have a listening deficit.
The argument that reasonably designed, properly functioning amplifiers of adequate power all sound the same has been around for many decades. As a 50 hi-fi veteran, to me it's very "old" in the sense of archaic.
Do you strictly need a tube amp to add distortion? I bet software (in combination with hardware) can do what tubes can while tubes cannot do what software can. VST plugins can (at least possible in theory, just a need of a correct implementation) emulate all classic and modern guitar amps you can think of with better accuracy than getting the real deal. You don't need hardware to add distortion, software can do it and have more flexibility.Right! You're talking about Guitar amps. That's what tubes are for! And it's where distortion is valued.
No, ofc you don't strictly need a tube amp to add distortion. For example, I use digital modeling in a pedalboard. For VST (and similar) plugins Amplitube and Bias Amp are popular. And there are scads of hardware devices that aim to achieve similar effects.Do you strictly need a tube amp to add distortion? I bet software (in combination with hardware) can do what tubes can while tubes cannot do what software can. VST plugins can (at least possible in theory, just a need of a correct implementation) emulate all classic and modern guitar amps you can think of with better accuracy than getting the real deal. You don't need hardware to add distortion, software can do it and have more flexibility.
...
Actually some measurements show up differences that correlated to human preferences. 2nd & 3rd harmonic distortions are pleasant sound whereas harmonics of 4th order and higher are increasingly discordant and unpleasant. Designers such as Pass and Curl, (so disdained hereabouts), know this and have designed equipment accordingly;
You're right: Pass didn't say that, (I had previously read that reference BTW). OTOH his designs seem to tolerate of 2nd & 3rd order HD; see Stereophile review of the XA60.5 ... https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements. Clearly it isn't Pass' intent to minimize distortion to the rigorous degree that folks here at ASR demand. I supposed may mention that his amps do sound great, (apart from the "fact" that "All amplifier sound the same" )No, Nelson Pass don´t say that.
"Audiophiles have been accused of using 2nd or 3rd harmonic distortion as tone controls to deliberately alter the sound. I suppose that there are people who like it that way, but I don't think this is generally the case. For reasons which will become clearer when we talk about inter-modulation distortion, high levels of any harmonic become problematic with musical material having multiple instruments, and the argument that 2nd or 3rd adds “musicality” doesn't quite hold up."
https://www.passdiy.com/project/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback
I'm continually baffled by why Nelson Pass's claims about distortion have a life of their own. He has, to my knowledge, never ever demonstrated that his assertions are correct, yet they're taken as gospel.Although this post is somewhat old... The fact that people like (some forms) of distortion has actually been demonstrated in multiple studies. For sure there are different flavors. In some indirect way I have argued that feedback in amps can help. The 2 different (apparently conflicting) views brought forward in this thread are somewhat reconciled by it. I'll attach it as an interesting read.
Cheers,
Mark
That's a repetition of what has been said in this thread over 10 times, with the addition of an unsubstantiated opinion regarding 300B tubes. Very useful.I'm continually baffled by why Nelson Pass's claims about distortion have a life of their own. He has, to my knowledge, never ever demonstrated that his assertions are correct, yet they're taken as gospel.
I'd nominate the 300B as the Most Overrated Tube of All Time. 12AX7 can perform well, but not the way it's generally used.