Need help relating measurements to sound(if at all possible)

[Trdat]

I am totally understand that measurements is what we follow and I am pro science. I am not asking for subjective impressions here but merely an attempt to understand if and how some measurements(or types of distortion) might correlate to a certain type of sound.

I have mentioned before that upgrading from my NAD375 preamp part to the NAD C510 was very disappointing. The specs are exactly the same as the tested NAD M51 and there is talk that they are very similar. Anyway, when switching to the NAD C510 as the pre amp yes its more crisp, I can play louder without it distorting(to my ears) and the bass is tighter but I hate the sharp digital sound.

Now, I am keen on the Okto DAC8 pro for my future multichannel set up but am afraid of this sharp edgy sound. Is the NAD a one off? or is this edgy sound part of all new DACS?

Is it that it might mean a good measurement correlates with this harsh and edgy perhaps silibant sound? Is there any measurement such as a type of distortion which we know that gives us a warmer sound? or this harsh sound so we can look out for it?

I am an amateur so take it easy on me)) Lol!

 

[JohnYang1997]

If the distortion of amp is too high it can sound warm or grungy. If distortion in headphones is too high it can sound either grey/ dusty or muddy. If distortion is not low enough on a dac it can sound less separated in the mid to bass region and can sound harsh/tiny.
If the distortion is low enough, they should sound the same and very good. And no, good dacs shouldn't sound harsh or aggressive. It should be some sort of clean clear and glossy/less fluffy in comparison.

 

[gvl]

IMO the cleanliness and better dynamic range of well measurng gear can be perceived as sharpness initially after coming from lesser equipment. It can take some time getting used to, but it sounds closer to live performance if you think about it. Also the differences you hear might not be as significant as you think, try a level matched blind test and see if you can reliably recognize one device from the other, chances are you won't be able to.

 

[Trdat]

Also the differences you hear might not be as significant as you think, try a level matched blind test and see if you can reliably recognize one device from the other, chances are you won't be able to.[/QUOTE]

I can't argue with you there but listening fatigue sets in something i never experienced with the NAD356.

 

[Trdat]

If the distortion is low enough, they should sound the same and very good. And no, good dacs shouldn't sound harsh or aggressive. It should be some sort of clean clear and glossy/less fluffy in comparison.[/QUOTE]

This gives me some direction but with the other comment by GVL it doesn't leave me satisfied that well measured DAC's are not sharp. Although you mention that good DAC's shouldn't sound harsh I am curious if anybody has listened to heaps of DACS and has some experience with some of the better measuring ones and is aware that they do not have that harsh edgy sound.

JohnYang, I am not being rude just curious if you talk with enough conviction about a good DAC shouldn't sound harsh. I know describing a type of sound is subjective but if we talk generally. I personally, don't talk with enough experience to say well measuring DAC's sound harsh but from forums I have ascertained that DAC's in general or signals in the digital domain tend to have a harsher sound compared to analogue. Hence the debate about tube vs solid state... And new DAC's apparently have this type of sound.

 

[majingotan]

Is it that it might mean a good measurement correlates with this harsh and edgy perhaps silibant sound? Is there any measurement such as a type of distortion which we know that gives us a warmer sound? or this harsh sound so we can look out for it?

I've heard several DACs and performed sight A/B volume matched tested two of my own DACs. One has average measurements at 101 dB SINAD (Chord Mojo) and the other has a terrible 58 dB SINAD (Schiit Bifrost 2, my main DAC BTW) and I cannot hear a difference between the two DACs at a volume matched sighted test. DACs, in general, even those measuring horribly sound the same at least for my ears using a decent Yamaha HS7+HS8S speaker and the 121 dB SINAD Schiit Saga preamp in passive mode. This is just my subjective findings and maybe you have better ears than me. As for subjective input, I've never encountered DACs that sound harsh, bright, warm. If they do, that's due to the transducers themselves, and Yamaha HS7 to my ears neither sound bright, nor dark, just "neutral". It just plays music with frequencies at around +/- 3dB per crude microphone measurement.

 

[Trdat]

in general, even those measuring horribly sound the same at least for my ears [/SIZE]

My $30 Dayton DAC sounds better to me then my NADC510. So point taken...

And due to this, is how I came to the conjecture that perhaps better measuring DACs do sound a little on the harsh side. Anyway, maybe I ask for a money back option when I purchase my next DAC just in case.

But it seems that the NAD might be a one off....

 

[Killingbeans]

but from forums I have ascertained that DAC's in general or signals in the digital domain tend to have a harsher sound compared to analogue.

It's an old wifes' tale. Don't believe it

 

[majingotan]

Need to DBT volume matched test to not fool your brain to think that well measuring DACs have a bright/harsh/edgy sound. The objective statement would be that they don’t add or subtract anything from the original source

 

[Dogen]

You may just be hearing more clearly what’s on the recording. Recordings can sound harsh or fatiguing because of mixing and mastering choices, but a decent DAC should not.

 

[audiophile]

Is there any measurement such as a type of distortion which we know that gives us a warmer sound?

High-frequency roll-off and bass boost

am afraid of this sharp edgy sound

The problem is that definition of “sharp edgy sound” varies from one person to another. I do not know what you mean by that. I have my own definition but it certainly cannot be universally applied to everyone. I owned several DACs of various designs including discrete R2R and all of them did not sound harsh to my ears. I believe those DACs measure differently.

Another thing to think about: are you sure that the harshness you hearing is coming from the DAC? I had a situation in my own system when an amp incapable to drive a certain speaker model whose impedance dropped in high frequencies resulted in a harsh, unpleasant sound at high volume.

Also, apart from changing a DAC, there are many other ways to tweak harshness: eq, dsp, speakers’ placement, height and toe-in, room treatment.

You may just be hearing more clearly what’s on the recording. Recordings can sound harsh or fatiguing because of mixing and mastering choices, but a decent DAC should not.

True. To me a lot of modern recordings sound harsh and fatiguing. Maybe my ears are over sensitive to this type of sound. There are people who prefer to hear everything on the recording including its imperfections and there are others who want their system to smoothen out those issues.