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Need help configuring a 2.2 setup - decision paralysis.

PEQuestrian

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Joined
Aug 25, 2024
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Hi everyone, I could use some help picking a streamer / dac / preamp combo for a 2.2 setup. After endlessly reading through countless device threads where pros and cons are discussed, I'm finding myself in a state of decision paralysis that I'd like to break. (Specific questions at the end of the post)

What I already own:
  • Android phone, iPhone and iPad for playback over Wifi (or to control a Win desktop player)
  • A Win 11 Mini PC (hidden, bootable via wake-on-Lan, connects via HDMI 1.4 to TV screen for MKV playback - want to keep that functionality)
  • An M3 MacBook Air (mentioning in case this opens up additional options)
Requirements:
  • Play lossless music (Qobuz) from a source that actually outputs 24/192. (Apparently some streaming services have limited output signal quality on some platforms?)
  • Full range DRC capabilities with manual PEQ
  • Don't mind spending a lot of time on the initial setup, learning a tool BUT: once the config is dialed in, starting up the system, picking and playing music needs to quick and easy. (Listening > tinkering)
  • 4V balanced XLR outs are a plus but not must haves
  • I don't need a A/D converter or phono line stage.
After a LOT of reading I've somewhat narrowed things down to 3 options (but still open to other suggestions):

(1) Use existing Win 11 Mini PC as a Qobuz streamer --> external USB DAC / preamp --> power amp & single ended RCA out --> subs

Pros:Cons:
  • Appears to be the most capable and future proof streamer/DSP option​
  • Free REW or full Dirac Live (with DL bass management) available​
  • On-device DSP & EQ capabilities open up wide variety of USB Dacs/Preamps to choose from​
  • No need to purchase streamer or DSP hardware features​
  • Slow-ish PC bootup time
  • Not a fanless setup (but could add noctua silent fan to reduce noise)
  • Qobuz Desktop app not sync'd with mobile devices for seamless remote playback management
  • Will dual-duty for MKV streaming into AVR require manually switching audio output between HDMI and USB Mac each time?

(2) Buy a MiniDSP SHD with a Dirac Live and use SVS app to integrate subs

Pros:Cons:
  • Streamer/DAC/DSP/Preamp all-in-one (+ local file playback)​
  • Easy-of-use with playback from mobile device​
  • 4V balanced outputs (enables high-gain input stage use on power amp)​
  • Costly while offering limited bass management (could SVS app compensate?)
  • Per channel tap caps limit use of other DRC filters
  • 96KHZ not truly lossless
  • No loudness control
  • Reports of lackluster dev & feature update support
  • Aging device, unclear if (better) replacement might launch soon-ish?

(3) Use Wiim Ultra as Streamer --> RME ADI-2 Dac fs with REW DRC --> power amp & single ended RCA out --> subs

Pros:Cons:
  • Good Streamer interface​
  • Easy-of-use with playback from mobile device​
  • RME -> free, capable DRC with REW, no need to buy Dirac Live​
  • Good DAC & pre-amp with RME for similar cost (compared to option 2)​
  • Better bass management than Dirac Live (without DLBC)​
  • USB out / in​
  • Still costly compared to Win PC option
  • 2 boxes will take up more space and require one extra power outlet
  • How future proof

Question(s):

PC:
how can I set up and control my PC without the need to switch audio outputs or multiple player subscriptions? I've used Remote Desktop software before and wasn't a fan (laggy, clunky to use) but could very well have changed since.

MiniDSP SHD: are there any updates on a new version coming out soon? Has anyone A/B tested SQ with a device (96Khz) against true losses and noticed reduce SQ? Has anyone had luck using the SVS app to successfully integrate subs with the MiniDSP SHD?

Wiim Ultra + RME ADI-2 DAC FS: can anyone comment on this configuration specfically?

I'm not (yet) really leaning one way or another as I'm not sure I've captured all important-to-me pros and cons comprehensively, so I'm welcoming of ANY suggestions.

Thanks in Advance!
 
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Hi,
You have questions that I can't answer: use and control of your PC.

Apart from that, the miniDSP Flex is perfect for a 2.2 system. Offers Dirac if you want that too.
Either use your PC as the streaming source, or add a WiiM streamer - even the mini - which has good Qobuz integration.

Hopefully someone else can help with the PC question.

Good luck :)
 
Thanks. To complicate things further: from other posts / threads, it appears the RME ADI-2 DAC may be limited in its PEQ capabilities and the MiniSHD allegedly has a clunky user interface? Do you agree with the latter?
 
Hi, PEQuestrian. I use option one. Perhaps I can help you. First, your Windows 11 PC need not have a fan. I use the Mele Quieter 3 which is fanless. They have several models, it should be fine for a HTPC. Second, you could use Windows Desktop applications for Qobuz or Tidal or even Amazon for lossless streaming. Third, you could control everything with a wireless keyboard and dongle. I use a Logitech model I bought for $20 some years back. I send video via HDMI to my LG C1 55" Oled which serves as control monitor for the PC as well as home theater PC and audio via USB to my multichannel usb dac. Fourth, I run Dirac through JRiver which connects to my Octo 8 channel USB DAC via an Asio driver. Finally, you can configure JRiver to have multiple "zones" with different configuration (kind of how miniDSP does it). And finally, finally Dirac DLBC will function as your high/low pass filter (and JRiver can do PEQ as well as run convolution files for other DSP systems like Audiolense), though JRiver could do the same, so no need for an external electronic crossover.

Mele computers are running l.t. $200, JRiver is $65, you would have to buy an external usb dac with at least four channels, the cheapest of which is probably the miniDSP 2 x 4 HD which can control volume with a remote (it just won't tell you what the volume level is). Dirac is pricy but I think worth it, inasmuch as it solves so many issues.

Running this way you have no need for any Roku, Chromecast, or any other streamer. You will never have to worry about network connections, or try to figure out how to do processing. It also probably the most economical solution. And Dirac will remain portable across any other PC you buy. If you buy Dirac for a hardware platform, it's only usable on those platforms, so when the hardware goes, so too your Dirac license unless you buy another unit from the same hardware vendor.
 
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Hi, PEQuestrian. I use option one. Perhaps I can help you. First, your Windows 11 PC need not have a fan. I use the Mele Quieter 3 which is fanless. They have several models, it should be fine for a HTPC. Second, you could use Windows Desktop applications for Qobuz or Tidal or even Amazon for lossless streaming. Third, you could control everything with a wireless keyboard and dongle. I use a Logitech model I bought for $20 some years back. I send video via HDMI to my LG C1 55" Oled which serves as control monitor for the PC as well as home theater PC and audio via USB to my multichannel usb dac. Fourth, I run Dirac through JRiver which connects to my Octo 8 channel USB DAC via an Asio driver. Finally, you can configure JRiver to have multiple "zones" with different configuration (kind of how miniDSP does it). And finally, finally Dirac DLBC will function as your high/low pass filter (and JRiver can do PEQ as well as run convolution files for other DSP systems like Audiolense), though JRiver could do the same, so no need for an external electronic crossover.

Mele computers are running l.t. $200, JRiver is $65, you would have to buy an external usb dac with at least four channels, the cheapest of which is probably the miniDSP 2 x 4 HD which can control volume with a remote (it just won't tell you what the volume level is). Dirac is pricy but I think worth it, inasmuch as it solves so many issues.

Running this way you have no need for any Roku, Chromecast, or any other streamer. You will never have to worry about network connections, or try to figure out how to do processing. It also probably the most economical solution. And Dirac will remain portable across any other PC you buy. If you buy Dirac for a hardware platform, it's only usable on those platforms, so when the hardware goes, so too your Dirac license unless you buy another unit from the same hardware vendor.
Very helpful post, thank you.

So a full DL license is $800 (outside of promotions). Completely agree with your point about not tying that much money to a hardware device. What if it breaks out of warranty?

IIRC, the MiniDSP 2x4 didn't measure well here but if I could get away with the existing PC as a streamer (using a silent fan to keep the internal one from kicking on?), I'd be willing to spend a bit more on a better multi-channel DAC/Pre. Especially, if I could get REW DRC & PEQ filters added into the signal chain at $0... That said, I'm still mostly unclear on REW's capabilities compared to DL and how well it integrates with players. - Added to the reading list.

Another aspect of the "Streaming PC route" I'd really love to get more clarity on is: how I can control the music playback on the PC from mobile devices, possibly without turning on the TV at all? - This is mostly with my wife in mind who'd rather listen on her phone speaker :)facepalm:) before turning on the PC and clicking her way through the app (or switching settings), but also for me for evening low light listening sessions. Wondering if there is a way to use something like a Chromecast, connected to said PC to stream from a phone into the signal chain with the DSP on the PC and then out (lossless)?

I can do more research there myself, as well but laying out the options in the grid above and hearing how others here are playing lossless is already helping me navigate all these options and considerations.
 
Thanks. To complicate things further: from other posts / threads, it appears the RME ADI-2 DAC may be limited in its PEQ capabilities and the MiniSHD allegedly has a clunky user interface? Do you agree with the latter?
The RME ADI-2 Pro Fs is limited regarding PEQs if you want to do room correction at low frequencies. It has only 3 PEGs below 200Hz, plus bass control. This is not sufficient to compensate each problematic room mode, if your room has more than 3. Also, maximum attenuation is only -12dB.

The RME has no x-over and delay functionality, so ideally both your speakers and sub would have DSP capability (e.g. something like Neumann KH150 and KH705).

The SHD User interface IMO is considerably easier to use than RME. The RME is the technically better device, however, cannot substitute a SHD without adding further hardware...
 
You may also want to read this thread:

 
In my PC(Windows)-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multiamplifier fully active stereo audio (audio-visual) setup having 55-inch OLED TV as second PC monitor (through optical HDMI cable), I currently use:

1. JRiver MC as system-wide audio (audio-visual) player (master volume controller),
2. VB-Audio MATRIX as system-wide ASIO/VASIO/VAIO routing center,
3. DSP software "EKIO" as system-wide flexible DSP (XO/EQ/Phase/Group-Delay/Relative-Gain) center,
4. 8-Ch multichannel DAC OKTO DAC8PRO as system-wide DAC to feed XO-ed 8-Ch into dedicated amplifiers directly driving L&R subwoofers, woofers, midranges, tweeters, and super-tweeters.

If you would be interested, you can find details of my latest system setup in my post #931 on my project thread.

At your first glance, maybe my setup looks a little bit complicated, but it is not so at all when you would understand the essence of the total hardware configuration and total signal path.

You can easily and cost-effectively implement simplified similar flexible setup based on your demand(s) for number of channels and/or number of SP drivers.
 
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Thanks. To complicate things further: from other posts / threads, it appears the RME ADI-2 DAC may be limited in its PEQ capabilities and the MiniSHD allegedly has a clunky user interface? Do you agree with the latter?
Hi,
I'm no power user, but I find the miniDSP Flex UI perfectly adequate. I quite like it. Assume that the rest of the range is similar. It's not a place to visit frequently - set, adjust and forget.
 
Hi everyone, I could use some help picking a streamer / dac / preamp combo for a 2.2 setup. After endlessly reading through countless device threads where pros and cons are discussed, I'm finding myself in a state of decision paralysis that I'd like to break. (Specific questions at the end of the post)

What I already own:
  • Android phone, iPhone and iPad for playback over Wifi (or to control a Win desktop player)
  • A Win 11 Mini PC (hidden, bootable via wake-on-Lan, connects via HDMI 1.4 to TV screen for MKV playback - want to keep that functionality)
  • An M3 MacBook Air (mentioning in case this opens up additional options)
Requirements:
  • Play lossless music (Qobuz) from a source that actually outputs 24/192. (Apparently some streaming services have limited output signal quality on some platforms?)
  • Full range DRC capabilities with manual PEQ
  • Don't mind spending a lot of time on the initial setup, learning a tool BUT: once the config is dialed in, starting up the system, picking and playing music needs to quick and easy. (Listening > tinkering)
  • 4V balanced XLR outs are a plus but not must haves
  • I don't need a A/D converter or phono line stage.
After a LOT of reading I've somewhat narrowed things down to 3 options (but still open to other suggestions):

(1) Use existing Win 11 Mini PC as a Qobuz streamer --> external USB DAC / preamp --> power amp & single ended RCA out --> subs

Pros:Cons:
  • Appears to be the most capable and future proof streamer/DSP option​
  • Free REW or full Dirac Live (with DL bass management) available​
  • On-device DSP & EQ capabilities open up wide variety of USB Dacs/Preamps to choose from​
  • No need to purchase streamer or DSP hardware features​
  • Slow-ish PC bootup time
  • Not a fanless setup (but could add noctua silent fan to reduce noise)
  • Qobuz Desktop app not sync'd with mobile devices for seamless remote playback management
  • Will dual-duty for MKV streaming into AVR require manually switching audio output between HDMI and USB Mac each time?

(2) Buy a MiniDSP SHD with a Dirac Live and use SVS app to integrate subs

Pros:Cons:
  • Streamer/DAC/DSP/Preamp all-in-one (+ local file playback)​
  • Easy-of-use with playback from mobile device​
  • 4V balanced outputs (enables high-gain input stage use on power amp)​
  • Costly while offering limited bass management (could SVS app compensate?)
  • Per channel tap caps limit use of other DRC filters
  • 96KHZ not truly lossless
  • No loudness control
  • Reports of lackluster dev & feature update support
  • Aging device, unclear if (better) replacement might launch soon-ish?

(3) Use Wiim Ultra as Streamer --> RME ADI-2 Dac fs with REW DRC --> power amp & single ended RCA out --> subs

Pros:Cons:
  • Good Streamer interface​
  • Easy-of-use with playback from mobile device​
  • RME -> free, capable DRC with REW, no need to buy Dirac Live​
  • Good DAC & pre-amp with RME for similar cost (compared to option 2)​
  • Better bass management than Dirac Live (without DLBC)​
  • USB out / in​
  • Still costly compared to Win PC option
  • 2 boxes will take up more space and require one extra power outlet
  • How future proof

Question(s):

PC:
how can I set up and control my PC without the need to switch audio outputs or multiple player subscriptions? I've used Remote Desktop software before and wasn't a fan (laggy, clunky to use) but could very well have changed since.

MiniDSP SHD: are there any updates on a new version coming out soon? Has anyone A/B tested SQ with a device (96Khz) against true losses and noticed reduce SQ? Has anyone had luck using the SVS app to successfully integrate subs with the MiniDSP SHD?

Wiim Ultra + RME ADI-2 DAC FS: can anyone comment on this configuration specfically?

I'm not (yet) really leaning one way or another as I'm not sure I've captured all important-to-me pros and cons comprehensively, so I'm welcoming of ANY suggestions.

Thanks in Advance!
Wouldn't it be easier to just get a Wiim Ultra and see how far you can get with it?
10 band EQ/PEQ (separate for each speaker, so a maximum of 20 different settings) and integrated room correction are available, as is a remote control. The time required for setting up and the costs are not very high.
Sometimes less is more.
 
In my PC(Windows)-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multiamplifier fully active stereo audio (audio-visual) setup having 55-inch OLED TV as second PC monitor (through HDMI optical cable), I currently use:

1. JRiver MC as system-wide audio (audio-visual) player (master volume controller),
2. VB-Audio MATRIX as system-wide ASIO/VASIO/VAIO routing center,
3. DSP software "EKIO" as system-wide flexible DSP (XO/EQ/Phase/Group-Delay/Relative-Gain) center,
4. 8-Ch multichannel DAC OKTO DAC8PRO as system-wide DAC to feed XO-ed 8-Ch into dedicated amplifiers directly driving L&R subwoofers, woofers, midranges, tweeters, and super-tweeters.

If you would be interested, you can find details of my latest system setup in my post #931 on my project thread.

At your first glance, maybe my setup looks a little bit complicated, but it is not so at all when you would understand the essence of the total hardware configuration and total signal path.

You can easily and cost-effectively implement simplified similar flexible setup based on your demand(s) for number of channels and/or number of SP drivers.
I also have the Octo Dac 8 Pro which is a gem. It's firmware has been upgraded so that it's now possible to do most if not all the things (PEQ, Hi, Low pass digital crossovers, limiting) that can be done on a miniDSP unit. Only drawback is that it's difficult to learn how, though there are online tutorials. All in all, the best choice for a multichannel DAC.

There are other choices Topping DM-7 and Motu MK 5 Lite will also offer multichannel Dacs at lower prices with greater availability, though without the full feature set of the Octo.
 
If the wife has entered the chat, then a WiiM unit is your God send. Since you stream with Qobuz I consider this a defacto no-brainer for the cost (can be under $75).
Very tempted by the Ultra's reviews and praise for the UI.

Capable bass management for dual subs with phase adjustment to address nulls in my room, however, is towards the top of my requirements list though. So if I went that route I'd still need DSP in the chain.

Along the lines of my Chromecast question above:

Could I stream into a Wiim Ultra, output hi-res via USB to my PC running REW filters and bass management there and then output via a good 4ch+ dac with preamp?
 
Very tempted by the Ultra's reviews and praise for the UI.

Capable bass management for dual subs with phase adjustment to address nulls in my room, however, is towards the top of my requirements list though. So if I went that route I'd still need DSP in the chain.

Along the lines of my Chromecast question above:

Could I stream into a Wiim Ultra, output hi-res via USB to my PC running REW filters and bass management there and then output via a good 4ch+ dac with preamp?
Think about this for a minute...

Your PC is a streamer, no need for the WiiM in that scenario.

Others can advise on how you manage the crossovers and outputs to your 4 channels and what sort of interface you need. I'm not familiar with that setup. Seems complicated to me since you don't need DSP twice so you need a crossover and routing - pro gear?

Can't help thinking that streaming from your PC (or WiiM mini even) + miniDSP Flex is simple, functional and not horrifically expensive.
 
Think about this for a minute...

Your PC is a streamer, no need for the WiiM in that scenario.

Others can advise on how you manage the crossovers and outputs to your 4 channels and what sort of interface you need. I'm not familiar with that setup. Seems complicated to me since you don't need DSP twice so you need a crossover and routing - pro gear?

Can't help thinking that streaming from your PC (or WiiM mini even) + miniDSP Flex is simple, functional and not horrifically expensive.
I understand that there's functional overlap between the WiiM Ultra and the PC. I'm only entertaining this is because the PC is available, could serve as DSP processor but still scores low(er) on usability/access as a streamer. At least until I can find an easier way to control Qobuz playback from mobile devices, ideally with the monitor (TV) off.

So here's how I am thinking about approaching this:

(1) Get a MiniDSP SHD without a DL license and try to use the existing PC for DRC and streaming first.

-> If I can get that all to work as intended but the fan keeps coming on -> replace the PC with a fanless one.

(2) If I can't figure out convenient mobile device control of playback on the PC, look further into adding a cheap wifi streaming USB audio input device to stream to the PC from Android and iOS.

(3) If I can't get get that to work AND the fan keeps coming on, I abandon the PC and add a Dirac License to the MiniDSP SHD and try using the built in streamer. The lacking DLBC I would try to augment with the SVS app.

(4) If I don't like the streamer, I add a WiiM Ultra before the MiniDSP.

Thoughts?
 
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If you get to (4) I'm not clear on the benefit of the $325 WiiM Ultra vs one of the models that are half as much (at least) for streaming Qobuz?

But, I agree with @JeremyFife - I'd go the simple route. Your wife will thank you.
 
Buy a MiniDSP SHD with a Dirac Live and use SVS app to integrate subs
You don't need the SVS app for that, the minidsp is fully capable of that
 
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I use a Topping DX5 Lite for a 2.2 setup connected to a USB switcher so I can go back and forth between my mac (work computer) and windows PC (personal.) Having EQAPO / REW is a considerable benefit. I used to use a mini PC for some streaming also, remote desktop on windows makes it pretty doable once you get it dialed.

You could chuck a WiiM Mini on the back of the same DAC to have instant streaming capability and MOST of the same room correction capability if you can keep yourself to 10 filters.

Overall I'm quite happy with how it works, really no fuss once you get the EQ set up.

Added bonus: I have additional sets of filters that I use at night to take the subs out (steep highpass) while leaving the room correction in place. So the subs are still active but at very, very low gain.
 
....
Overall I'm quite happy with how it works, really no fuss once you get the EQ set up.

Added bonus: I have additional sets of filters that I use at night to take the subs out (steep highpass) while leaving the room correction in place. So the subs are still active but at very, very low gain.

Agree with you; when we get used to flexible DSP control even on-the -fly while listening to music, i.e. XO-Fq/XO-Slopes/Relative-Gain/EQ/Group-Delay/phase-Inversion/etc., would be great benefit and convenience; for these purposes, I use system-wide DSP software "EKIO" in which almost all of the DSP parameters can be tuned/modified on-the-fly, while listening to music.

We should be most careful, however, in changing the relative gains on-the-fly for mainly safety concerns; we should not change the gains on-the-fly by numerical gain value input by keyboard typing! If you would mistype as "+35 dB" instead of your intending "+3.5 dB", you have high possibility of damaging or destroying your tweeters and/or super-tweeters, for example.

In this regard, the DSP "EKIO" has very nice and safe mouse-wheel-rotation up-and-down value change features (0.1 dB, 0.01 msec, 2 Hz granularity respectively) for all the DSP numeric parameters within its wonderfully/beautifully designed GUI. Mr. Guillaume BADAUT of LUPISOFT, developer of "EKIO", has kindly and quickly implemented this mouse-wheel-rotation features upon my request.

Of course, any of the "EKIO" DSP configurations can be saved as "EKIO configuration file" with your preferred file name, and "EKIO" also has ABX comparative features of any of the two sets of DSP configurations.

By the way, the free test version of "EKIO" only support two I/O channels, but you can ask Mr. Guillaume BADAUT of LUPISOFT for full-functioning evaluation version "EKIO" with no limitation of I/O channels for free, with only evaluation period limitation.
 
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Agree with you; when we get used to flexible DSP control even on-the -fly while listening to music, i.e. XO-Fq/XO-Slopes/Relative-Gain/EQ/Group-Delay/phase-Inversion/etc., would be great benefit and convenience; for these purposes, I use system-wide DSP software "EKIO" in which almost all of the DSP parameters can be tuned/modified on-the-fly, while listening to music.

We should be most careful, however, in changing the relative gains on-the-fly for mainly safety concerns; we should not change the gains on-the-fly by numerical gain value input by keyboard typing! If you would mistype as "+35 dB" instead of your intending "+3.5 dB", you have high possibility of damaging or destroying your tweeters and/or super-tweeters, for example.

In this regard, the DSP "EKIO" has very nice and safe mouse-wheel-rotation up-and-down value change features (0.1 dB, 0.01 msec, 2 Hz granularity respectively) for all the DSP numeric parameters. Mr. Guillaume BADAUT of LUPISOFT, developer of "EKIO", once kindly and quickly implemented this mouse-wheel-rotation features upon my request.

Of course, any of the "EKIO" DSP configurations can be saved as "EKIO configuration file" with your preferable file name, and "EKIO" also has ABX comparative features of any of the two sets of DSP configurations.

By the way, the free test version of "EKIO" only support two I/O channels, but you can ask Mr. Guillaume BADAUT of LUPISOFT for full-functioning evaluation version "EKIO" with no limitation of I/O channels for free, with only evaluation period limitation.
Yes, it's a good point. I only use presets with sets of filters that are set to zero gain or less. I don't really like to do systemwide changes, but (for example) you might need a different set of filters for your room correction with the door open or closed. So having files for this in EQAPO is really handy.
 
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