Need Advice: Should I Upgrade My Amp or DAC? (Wharfedale EVO 5.4 + Fosi V3 Mono)

[djmartin]

Hey everyone,


I recently upgraded to the Wharfedale EVO 5.4 speakers, and while I like what I hear, I’m not entirely convinced I’m getting the best out of them with my current setup.


Right now I’m running them with a pair of Fosi V3 mono amps, and a WiiM Ultra as DAC/streamer. The Fosi V3s are impressive for the price and clean on paper, but I'm wondering if they might be a bottleneck now that I've stepped up in speakers.


I've been eyeing the Yamaha A-S2200, mainly for its build, tone, and potentially warmer sound signature. But then I saw a few YouTube comparisons where people A/B test the Yamaha vs something like 2 x Hypex Nilai500DIY mono amps, and honestly, sonically, it seemed extremely close (if not identical). That’s made me pause and question whether I’d gain anything substantial by switching amps at all vs FOSI V3's.


On the other hand, perhaps the DAC is the weak link here. The WiiM Ultra is decent and very convenient, but would something like a Topping D70 Pro, SMSL D400EX, or similar push my system further. i want it to be a little more open in the top, i tryid SMSL SU1 and it sounds the same to me vs the DAC in the Wiim Ultra?


So here's where I’m stuck:
Do I upgrade the amp, DAC or just enjoy the music and stick with what I’ve got for now?

I’d love some thoughts from folks who’ve gone down this road already, especially with similar gear.


Thanks in advance!

 

[voodooless]

Do I upgrade the amp, DAC or just enjoy the music and stick with what I’ve got for now?

I would recommend to get a microphone, measure your setup, and use the EQ of the WiiM Ultra to improve it.

 

[Steven Holt]

Don't worry about yr DAC, the one in the WiiM is excellent. Sonically, no, yr not going to hear a difference. But looks count for something -- and the AS2200 is a beauty, and it has about every input you'll ever need. I'd buy that amp in a cold minute. Then take Voodooless's advice.

 

[Snoopy]

I used to have a class D Yamaha amp (wxa50) for my Wharfedale Evo 4.2 .

Upgraded to a Class A/B Cambridge CXA81 and that made already a noticeable improvement.

Upgraded the Evo 4.2 to the Wharfedale Super Linton and the Cambridge CXA81 went and a AS2200 came along .

Couldn’t be more happy with by current Setup. Get the AS2200 , it’s very well worth it and a beautiful amp
I ended up paying 2500 euro for it new.
(Offer + Yamaha cashback)

The Yamaha also has balanced inputs, a trim option for those to reduce the volume by 6db , the phono stage is pretty good. The headphone amplifier is nice enough as well and not just a gimmick.

I’m currently using the Line Out into my Headphone amp.

But the AS2200 also works as a preamp or Poweramp (mains in and out) if you feel like doing so.

 

[DVDdoug]

Electronics rarely make a difference unless you are over-driven an amplifier into clipping/distortion. But the Yamaha has tone controls which can make a difference and would make it easier to "shape" the sound.

On the other hand, different speakers ALWAYS sound different (better or worse). Or, consider adding a subwoofer.* ...I'm an old-school big-speaker guy and to me, 8-inches is barely a woofer. I'm not saying there's anything "wrong" with your speakers but they make the biggest differences.

Or, room acoustics also make a difference You might want to get a measurement mic (about $100 USD) and REW (free) and measure the speakers/room. Then you can consider EQ room correction or acoustic treatment.

and potentially warmer sound signature. But then I saw a few YouTube comparisons where people A/B test

"Warmth" has a couple of different meanings (both measurable) but normally, we don't expect different amps to sound different unless you're using tone controls/EQ or in some cases you can have audible noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background).

Sighted A/B tests are generally useless unless a measurement can explain the difference, or unless you have obvious noise or maybe one channel is louder than the other or something like that.

See What is a blind ABX test? and Audiophoolery


* Integrating a subwoofer without a dedicated sub-output can be a bit tricky and you need an AVR or something with a surround decoder if you want to get the "point one" LFE channel from movies or other surround sources.

 

[Marc v E]

Those Fosi audio can output 200 watt and measure as clean as a high end amp. No worries there.

The Wiim ultra is again very clean as a streamer and dac.

I think the only way to improve your setup is to measure it with a minidsp microphone, reposition your speakers and seating position until you get the best out of it. Then apply eq with the wimm. This will make the sound clearer, ie easier to distinguish different sounds and words.

What also makes a difference is adding a subwoofer. This will give the sound "body". Making it more impressive.

The Yamaha amp imo is more like something looking cooler but sounding the same than an upgrade. It's bigger brother measures not as good as what you have now. Only the phono amp measures better. https://www.stereophile.com/content/yamaha-s3200-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Investing in a sub and eq will definately make a difference. Hope this helps.

 

[Multicore]

The advantage of the Yamaha amp is: controls

- Bass knob
- Treble knob
- Volume knob
- Balance knob

These are very valuable. But you can do better than the A-S2200 by spending less money. For example the A-S701 has

- Loudness knob

And that's a big deal, one of the prime reasons to choose a Yamaha amp.

 

[Marc v E]

The advantage of the Yamaha amp is: controls

- Bass knob
- Treble knob
- Volume knob
- Balance knob

These are very valuable. But you can do better than the A-S2200 by spending less money. For example the A-S701 has

- Loudness knob

And that's a big deal, one of the prime reasons to choose a Yamaha amp.

Variable loudness, based on volume is indeed very nice for low level listening.

 

[Steven Holt]

I'm sorry, I'm just going to come out and say it : If you're able to buy that AS 2200 (and it doesn't crimp your wallet too much) DO IT. You're a fool otherwise IMO

 

[antcollinet]

I'm sorry, I'm just going to come out and say it : If you're able to buy that AS 2200 (and it doesn't crimp your wallet too much) DO IT. You're a fool otherwise IMO

Regardless - if he does he is very unlikely to hear a difference.

The issue - if there is one - is not the electronics.

 

[djmartin]

The advantage of the Yamaha amp is: controls

- Bass knob
- Treble knob
- Volume knob
- Balance knob

These are very valuable. But you can do better than the A-S2200 by spending less money. For example the A-S701 has

- Loudness knob

And that's a big deal, one of the prime reasons to choose a Yamaha amp.

I looked at the A-S701 and it looks kind of great: Would you go for the Yamaha 701 - Currently 649 EURs on Amazon, or go with the AudioLab 9000P - ChatGPT says the build is better on the Audiolap, but i might miss out on the loudness and tone controls, i can get the Audiolab for 1200 Eurs, so it's almost double the price of the Yamaha! (Is the messurements okay on it or will i here noise) Or go another way a third option within 1200 Eurs!

 

[djmartin]

Hey everyone, thanks for your input and for taking the time.


I'm currently torn between a couple of options.


Based on your feedback the Yamaha A-S701, which seems like a great all-rounder, are currently going for only 649 EUR on Amazon, and the features like dynamic loudness and tone controls are definitely appealing too me.


On the other hand, I'm also considering the Audiolab 9000P, which I can get for around 1200 EUR. I know that’s almost double the price, but from what ChatGPT said, the build quality and internal components are on another level, especially in terms of power supply and overall control. The downside is I’d lose out on the tone controls and loudness functions of the YAMAHA, which I actually think i would use quite a bit at lower volumes.

Whats done now: I used the WiiM ultra, and hooked up a Umik-1 to my Iphone and did run the room currections also including the currection files! Awesome it can be used directly from the Wiim App now, and did multiple tests and it currected mostly the bass in my room, still hunting the details of the highs and mids! Something i think the YAMAHA could bring, colering the sound a little vs the analyticle flat experiance

A few questions:

• Are noise levels or measurements on the Yamaha clean enough for sensitive speakers like my Wharfedale EVO 5.4?
• Would you pick one of these or go a third route entirely within a ~1200 EUR budget?

I’ll be pairing the amp with Wharfedale EVO 5.4s and as a start my SMSL-SU1 dac or just the Wiim Ultra's dac, so any advice from people with similar setups would be super helpful!

 

[Marc v E]

I looked at the A-S701 and it looks kind of great: Would you go for the Yamaha 701 - Currently 649 EURs on Amazon, or go with the AudioLab 9000P - ChatGPT says the build is better on the Audiolap, but i might miss out on the loudness and tone controls, i can get the Audiolab for 1200 Eurs, so it's almost double the price of the Yamaha! (Is the messurements okay on it or will i here noise) Or go another way a third option within 1200 Eurs!

Well done, btw, that you took the step to measure your setup.

If your sound comes across as analytical I would suggest to roll of the treble a bit earlier. One other thing to consider is your room acoustics. If you clap your hands and it sounds sharp/hard/like an echo, soft furnishings can help a lot.
Ime curtains make a lot of difference. A carpet can reduce ground reflections.
Best, I think, is to share your measurements plus your room setup and receive feedback.

Concerning eq:
Usually we mostly apply eq under 200 hz. Wide trenches and peaks are audible. The quick, steep rise and fall in the treble and midrange area, the "grass" is inaudible.

 

[voodooless]

Isn’t the WiiM also supposed to get dynamic volume at some point in the future?

 

[djmartin]

The advantage of the Yamaha amp is: controls

- Bass knob
- Treble knob
- Volume knob
- Balance knob

These are very valuable. But you can do better than the A-S2200 by spending less money. For example the A-S701 has

- Loudness knob

And that's a big deal, one of the prime reasons to choose a Yamaha amp.

View attachment 463184

Well done, btw, that you took the step to measure your setup.

If your sound comes across as analytical I would suggest to roll of the treble a bit earlier. One other thing to consider is your room acoustics. If you clap your hands and it sounds sharp/hard/like an echo, soft furnishings can help a lot.
Ime curtains make a lot of difference. A carpet can reduce ground reflections.
Best, I think, is to share your measurements plus your room setup and receive feedback.

Concerning eq:
Usually we mostly apply eq under 200 hz. Wide trenches and peaks are audible. The quick, steep rise and fall in the treble and midrange area, the "grass" is inaudible.

 

[djmartin]

I used the messurement, shared it with ChatGPT and asked to make it more "AIR" ish in the trible, and it made one change to band 10, and I honestly think there is the air i was missing before now. Maybe now the "Umf and bass boom is gone from the room" as alot of the currection looks to be to control the bass. Thinking if a minidsp flex hd would be a better investment to take the Eq even further? vs a new amp or just be happy with what i have. I did the room test asking from 20 - 20.000Hz also i did not know what to set of actav - i tryid to follow this: https://faq.wiimhome.com/en/support...to-room-correction-for-enhanced-sound-quality

 

[Mike_Trueman]

I would go for the sexy "Yamaha A-S2200" if you have the space.

 

[Multicore]

I looked at the A-S701 and it looks kind of great: Would you go for the Yamaha 701 - Currently 649 EURs on Amazon, or go with the AudioLab 9000P - ChatGPT says the build is better on the Audiolap, but i might miss out on the loudness and tone controls, i can get the Audiolab for 1200 Eurs, so it's almost double the price of the Yamaha! (Is the messurements okay on it or will i here noise) Or go another way a third option within 1200 Eurs!

Amps that are not defective or driven into saturation all sound the same.

So the Yamaha is lower price and it has tone-shaping features that are going to make your listening experience better. So there's no contest in my view.

It could be just me. Take a very close look at the shelf of audio electronics in these three photos and tell me if you think I'm more in looks and pride of ownership or utility?

Post in thread 'Buckeye NC252MP Stereo Amplifier Review'

Dec 22, 2023

We don't decorate the home with appliances. The AV gear isn't the main feature. In fact, I prefer the gear that makes the effort to minimize it's presence at the party. I think the Buckeye Amp does that job real swell. I know some people like decorative AV gear, and that's cool. I, otoh, would rather brag about the ceramics in this picture and how four of those shown were made by my wife.

• Multicore

• 

I could buy a few nice bottles of wine for the €550 difference. Or it's half way to my next Partscaster.

 

[djmartin]

Hi all, i think i will go with one of this:

1482 Eur's - Hypex Nilai 500 Diy Kit (Newest - but is it truly needed 2 times the price of the Ncore NC502MP)
Or
728 Eur's - Hypex Ncore NC502MP (AUDIOPHONICS AP300-S500NC Amplificateur de Puissance NCore NC502MP) + add a FlexDSP (Don't know model yet)

 

[djmartin]

Amps that are not defective or driven into saturation all sound the same.

So the Yamaha is lower price and it has tone-shaping features that are going to make your listening experience better. So there's no contest in my view.

It could be just me. Take a very close look at the shelf of audio electronics in these three photos and tell me if you think I'm more in looks and pride of ownership or utility?

Post in thread 'Buckeye NC252MP Stereo Amplifier Review'

Dec 22, 2023

We don't decorate the home with appliances. The AV gear isn't the main feature. In fact, I prefer the gear that makes the effort to minimize it's presence at the party. I think the Buckeye Amp does that job real swell. I know some people like decorative AV gear, and that's cool. I, otoh, would rather brag about the ceramics in this picture and how four of those shown were made by my wife.

• Multicore

• 

I could buy a few nice bottles of wine for the €550 difference. Or it's half way to my next Partscaster.

Think i will go with one of the below:

1482 Eur's - Hypex Nilai 500 Diy Kit (Newest - but is it truly needed - 2 times the price of the Ncore NC502MP) - not money for wine.....
Or
728 Eur's - Hypex Ncore NC502MP (AUDIOPHONICS AP300-S500NC Amplificateur de Puissance NCore NC502MP) + add a FlexDSP (Don't know model yet) + a little left for some wine