Need Advice: Recording from Vinyl through Scarlett 4i4 4th gen

[Bobgoodfella]

Hi,
I am looking for some help with recording vinyl to my PC, I am experiencing clipping well into the red on both my Scarlett 2i2 and 4i4 both 4th gen when trying to record from most of my collection.

My set up is as follows.
Turntable - Rega P8 (modified)
Tonearm - Origin Live Encounter MKV
Cartridge - Hana ML
(2 rca to 2 rca)
Phono Preamp -Rega Aria (MC setting)
(2 rca to 2 1/4 rca)
Scarlett 2i2 or 4i4 4th gen (using instrument selection and no gain)
(USB connection to PC)

The issue I have is the output from the Aria is too hot for the Scarlett when I select instrument and the clipping is really bad, almost constant red on loud songs.
I have had success with many LP's from the 70's that are mastered at a lower volume using the instrument selection on the Scarlett, the recordings have been incredible, sounding exactly the same as the record when played back but just within the range of clipping with little room to spare.
If I turn off instrument and use the line recording there is no clipping and plenty of room for gain on even my loudest vinyl but the quality of the recording is nowhere near as good.

I am not a musician and have very little knowledge of musical gear, I have tried to research for a solution to my problem and the most common answer I can find is to use a DI box with a PAD between the Aria and the Scarlett. My main understanding is that a DI box will change the signal from unbalanced to balanced and I should be able to reduce the volume of the signal going into the Scarlett.

Is this the best solution?
Will I lose any quality introducing a DI box into the lineage?
Which DI box is the best for 2 rca connection in and out?
Is there a better audio interface than the Scarlett 4th gen with a built in PAD to save the need for a DI box?

Any help with this is greatly appreciated

 

[linuxfan]

... when I select instrument

In the photo I see you are using inputs 1 and 2, which are switchable between mic and instrument - but the Rega Aria is a line-level device, not instrument-level. You should be using Line Inputs 3 and 4.
You might also need to make some adjustments in the software - input selection, gain? I'm not familiar with the Focusrite Control software so I can't help there.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The issue I have is the output from the Aria is too hot for the Scarlett when I select instrument and the clipping is really bad, almost constant red on loud songs.

You should not feed line level signals into "instrument" inputs on an interface ADC. Your phono preamplifier has a line-level output so should only go into line-level inputs.

 

[linuxfan]

Oops sorry, just saw that you tried the line inputs

If I turn off instrument and use the line recording there is no clipping and plenty of room for gain on even my loudest vinyl but the quality of the recording is nowhere near as good.

This does not sound right to me - the line inputs are technically correct. Maybe you could ask on a forum which specialises in home recording - maybe homerecording.com or gearspace.

 

[AnalogSteph]

If I turn off instrument and use the line recording there is no clipping and plenty of room for gain on even my loudest vinyl but the quality of the recording is nowhere near as good.

Could you elaborate on "the quality of the recording is nowhere near as good" (especially since the actively clipping alternative has to be objectively terrible)? I don't see an obvious reason why using the line input with some RCA to 1/4" TS cables would not work splendidly, the ADC should have dynamic range to spare and input impedance of 30k unbalanced still is anything but low. One may want to ensure that the computer the interface is attached to doesn't have any funny ideas about ground potential, but that would affect all inputs equally. If in doubt, maybe you could upload a bit of a needledrop somewhere to illustrate any perceived deficiencies?

I am still at a loss regarding how you managed to overdrive the INST inputs that much, that cart has a nominal output of 0.4 mV and even with 69 dB of gain that should only be around 1.2 V (~+0 dBu), and the input is supposed to be able to take up to +12 dBu assuming input gain on the interface is turned all the way down (you obviously did do that, didn't you?). If nothing else helps, the Aria should have DIP switches for a reduced gain setting of 63 dB, which is still quite enough.

What kind of actual recorded peak levels are you seeing in either case?

 

[linuxfan]

I am still at a loss regarding how you managed to overdrive the INST inputs that much

Yes good point - maybe it's a simple case of having the input gain set too high?

@Bobgoodfella I suggest you watch this YouTube howto video -
Around the 3 minute point there are some good instructions regarding setting the gain, including how to stereo-link the 2 channels, and how to use auto-gain.

 

[Bobgoodfella]

I appreciate the replies, I am getting a loan of a Radial ProD2 next week.
I'll give an update when it arrives

 

[linuxfan]

The Radial ProD2 will convert an unbalanced line level signal (such as your Rega Aria has) to a balanced line level signal, using an impedance matching transformer - probably 10k-600ohm. Yes, this impedance step-down will reduce the signal voltage ... but you are inserting a transformer into the signal chain.
Can't you just turn down the input gain on the Scarlett, instead?

 

[DVDdoug]

I've heard of interfaces that don't turn down to zero...

If the DI box doesn't work you can use attenuators like this or this. With the fixed attenuators you might have to buy a couple in case you don't "guess" the necessary attenuation correctly. And the variable attenuator might not "track" left & right perfectly so you might get some imbalance. But you have to adjust the knobs on the interface separately anyway, and you can always re-balance after recording.

Note that digital levels aren't critical as long as you avoid clipping. Pros often record around -12 to -18dB. You don't need to leave THAT much headroom and nothing bad happens when you get close to 0dB and you'll usually want to normalize after recording anyway.

Will I lose any quality introducing a DI box into the lineage?

Possibly... The signal is lower so you'll be using the microphone preamp which will probably be noisier than the instrument/line-input. But it's highly-unlikely to be noisier than record noise.

Also, transformers can have imperfect frequency response and sometimes distort, but Radial has an excellent reputation.

Which DI box is the best for 2 rca connection in and out?

Most DI boxes have 1/4-inch "instrument" inputs and XLR "microphone" outputs. The instrument input shouldn't be a problem.

The main difference is that guitar pickups are high impedance so instrument inputs are high impedance (around 1 Megohm). Plugging-in a lower-impedance source isn't a problem.

And line level signals are usually a bit "hotter" (higher voltage) than guitar pickups, but when I read about the similar problem about an interface not turning-down enough, it was a guitar player (who thought turning down the knob on the guitar would hurt the tone).

 

[linuxfan]

If the DI box doesn't work you can use attenuators like this or this.

Yes, good idea, attenuation via a resistor (or variable resistor).
But again, the Scarlett already has this same function!

 

[linuxfan]

It would have been good to know the outcome.

 

[Bobgoodfella]

Sorry for the delay in responding, it took me longer than expected to acquire the Radial ProD2.

Placing the Radial ProD2 between my phono amp and Scarlett 4i4 has made a world of difference without needing to use the PAD and solved my problem.

The Radial ProD2 has a similar set up to the Scarlett with both Instrument and Line options.

Selecting Instrument inputs on both the Radial and Scarlett now allows for an extra 25db room to use the auto gain, without the Radial the input signal into the Scarlett was distorting badly by about 10db or more on the Instrument selection with auto-gain set to 0, the signal was way too hot.
I guess this is achieved by the Radial changing the signal from non-passive from my turntable and preamp to passive, reducing the volume significantly.

I was worried I might lose some sound quality by introducing the Radial but the opposite has happened.
I was able to compare my lowest volume vinyl (AC/DC - Back In Black US 1st Press) - (which I was just about able to record on the Scarlett on it's own without clipping) with and without the Radial, the recording with the Radial connected was far superior with more punch, bottom end and clarity in the mids and highs, I was really surprised at how good the playback was, it's identical to hearing the record direct through my amplifier.

I can now record all of my vinyl including the loudest cuts especially 12' singles in stunning quality, I couldn't be happier.

I know some of you suggested using the Line input instead of the Instrument selection on the Scarlett, it does stop the clipping and reduces the input volume allowing room for the auto-gain to be used but I could hear a big difference in the recording quality compared to using the Instrument selection, I wish I could post some audio samples to allow to you to hear the difference.

Thanks to everyone for their help and interest in this topic, for anyone interested below is a full list of the equipment I'm using

Rega Planar 8 Turntable (modified)
Origin Live Encounter MKV tonearm
Hana ML Cartridge
Origin Live Cartridge Enabler
Origin Live Strata Platter Mat
Origin Live Gravity One Record Weight

Rega Aria Phono Stage

Radial Pro D2 (Instrument Selection)

Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 4th gen (Instrument Selection)

PC Cool Edit Pro 2 (yes, I know it's ancient but I still love it).

 

[mrribbits98]

Doing something similar with great results:
Rega RP3 (Ortofon Black MM) -> Rogue RP-5 -> Scarlett 4i4 -> Macbook (VinylStudio)

Inputs 3 and 4 on the back of the Scarlett are line level inputs, but I use those for digital recordings from my DAC.
So I use inputs 1 and 2 for my vinyl recordings by linking the two inputs and using the auto-gain function on the Scarlett.
No Instrument selection, No Air selection.

 

[Keith_W]

It's a bit late now, but I noticed the OP was using his phono stage in the MC setting. MC has much lower output voltage than MM, so there is typically more gain. I wonder if changing the phono stage from MC to MM might have solved his problem.

 

[linuxfan]

I noticed the OP was using his phono stage in the MC setting

I'm thinking along the same lines that the Aria phono preamp may have a very high output level

I wonder if changing the phono stage from MC to MM might have solved his problem.

No, Bobgoodfella's Hana ML is a low-output MC cartridge and definitely needs the MC gain ... however I just checked the Rega Aria manual and I see it has configurable MC gain - either 63.5 dB or 69.3 dB. If it's presently set for 69.3 it would certainly be worth changing to 63.5 - that might be the solution. See page 3 of the manual.

 

[linuxfan]

Hey Bobgoodfella if you're still out there, here's a photo of the rear of the Rega Aria taken from the Rega website, which shows the "MC gain" dip switches.
In this photo you will see that switch 1 is on, and switch 2 is off, which is the configuration for 69.3 dB gain - it appears this is the default setting.
For the lower gain setting of 63.5 dB you would need to reverse these dip switch settings - switch 1 off, switch 2 on.
I have a strong suspicion that this lower gain setting should avoid distortion at the line input of your Scarlett 4i4.

 

[Adis]

Sorry for the delay in responding, it took me longer than expected to acquire the Radial ProD2.

Placing the Radial ProD2 between my phono amp and Scarlett 4i4 has made a world of difference without needing to use the PAD and solved my problem.

The Radial ProD2 has a similar set up to the Scarlett with both Instrument and Line options.

Selecting Instrument inputs on both the Radial and Scarlett now allows for an extra 25db room to use the auto gain, without the Radial the input signal into the Scarlett was distorting badly by about 10db or more on the Instrument selection with auto-gain set to 0, the signal was way too hot.
I guess this is achieved by the Radial changing the signal from non-passive from my turntable and preamp to passive, reducing the volume significantly.

I was worried I might lose some sound quality by introducing the Radial but the opposite has happened.
I was able to compare my lowest volume vinyl (AC/DC - Back In Black US 1st Press) - (which I was just about able to record on the Scarlett on it's own without clipping) with and without the Radial, the recording with the Radial connected was far superior with more punch, bottom end and clarity in the mids and highs, I was really surprised at how good the playback was, it's identical to hearing the record direct through my amplifier.

I can now record all of my vinyl including the loudest cuts especially 12' singles in stunning quality, I couldn't be happier.

I know some of you suggested using the Line input instead of the Instrument selection on the Scarlett, it does stop the clipping and reduces the input volume allowing room for the auto-gain to be used but I could hear a big difference in the recording quality compared to using the Instrument selection, I wish I could post some audio samples to allow to you to hear the difference.

Thanks to everyone for their help and interest in this topic, for anyone interested below is a full list of the equipment I'm using

Rega Planar 8 Turntable (modified)
Origin Live Encounter MKV tonearm
Hana ML Cartridge
Origin Live Cartridge Enabler
Origin Live Strata Platter Mat
Origin Live Gravity One Record Weight

Rega Aria Phono Stage

Radial Pro D2 (Instrument Selection)

Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 4th gen (Instrument Selection)

PC Cool Edit Pro 2 (yes, I know it's ancient but I still love it).

What does the Auto Gain do exactly?

 

[DavidR]

I'm late to this, too, curious because I've been using the 2i2 Gen 4 for distortion testing. I found the 2i2 a bit confusing at first (not a musician), but found that the INST setting should be turned off for distortion testing at least. I just ran a test with it in loopback running REW. In my case I have my balanced attenuator in the loopback and run the 2i2 Gen at -2db with the input gain at 18 (provided the best distortion results using added HD). With the INST setting off, my normal use, all is fine. The REW input reads -2.49dB. When I turn on the INST setting, distortion increases dramatically. If I recall correctly the Auto gain is used for instrument input for auto gain control, not sure of all details. For use with digitizing records I would not use auto gain. Seems to me that gain should be fixed. Auto gain, I would think, would introduce compression in some fashion.

Further testing. If I change the REW gen output, then turn INST on/off (while on I see no gain change in the app display), when turned off the gain has changed. Lowering the REW gen results in increased gain showing when INST is turned off. My guess is that with the INST setting the auto gain comes into play, but the app update is disabled given the rate of change of gain with signal. It couldn't keep up. But the "final" gain is definitely different. Since REW gen is fixed during my tests, the gain is always the same for any given Gen output.

I also note that in the last post by Bobgoodfella the comparison shows the gain at about 20dB with the ProD2 and zero without. Even with the ProD2 it seems to me that INST should be turned off and gain fixed at zero.

Unless I'm mistaken the INST should be disabled when digitizing any kind of pre-recorded material. I used the 2i2 to digitize a number of old cassette tapes. Line level output of course, but worked perfectly. Turning INST on/off seems to have an affect dependent on the level of the incoming signal. Having it on would explain why the gain shown above is about 20dB. Maybe it stays fixed at the level shown, but in my testing it's problematic. The 2i2/4i4 should easily be able to work without the ProD2 with INST off and gain set to zero. I suppose it's possible that even then the headroom might not be sufficient, but I'd be surprised.

At least this is how I'm interpreting it.