Need a next level audio nerd to explain something

[marked sound]

I have asked several people this, and they either are not explaining it so I can understand, or they just don't know. Because when I probe further they do not reply. Please help.

I was going to purchase EverSolo DMP-A10 (DAC/Sreamer) and use it strictly as DAC/Streamer and NOT a preamp. Reason for wanting the A10 is because it has room correction.
I was told that I still can use the room correction feature on the A10 even if I am not using it as a preamp. It will just adjust the EQ sound settings of the source music, before it gets to my amplifier.

All of a sudden I find out the cheaper EverSolo DMP-A8 now has a firmware update for room correction. I have been asking on forums, "With the DMP-A8 now getting room correction, is it worth the extra cost of the A10". Some people are saying yes, because the A8 does not have any subwoofer outs, and you won't be able to control the subwoofer settings on the room correction.

This is what no one can explain. If I am not using the A10 or A8 as a preamp and only as a DAC/Streamer, then why does having a subwoofer out for room correction even matter? My subwoofer and speakers will be hooked up to my AMPLIFIER only. Will the mic hooked up to the A8 or A10, simply not listen to end result sound coming from my amp/spekers/sub, and make the necessary equalizer adjustments accordingly? (From what I know the room correction settings are EQ based, am i wrong?). Either way, whether I purchase the A8 or A10 I am not hooking anything up to the sub outs.


So. This is what I need to know.

#1. CAN the DMP A10 and A8 room correction feature be used if NOT using it as a preamp and only as a DAC/streamer, like some people say it can?

#2. If the room correction can be used if using it only as a DAC/streamer, then why does the absence of a sub out on the A8 even matter, or the addition of one on the A10 even matter, when I won't have anything hooked up to the sub outs regardless?

Please explain this like I am 5 years old.

Thanks for the help.

 

[kemmler3D]

If I am not using the A10 or A8 as a preamp and only as a DAC/Streamer, then why does having a subwoofer out for room correction even matter? My subwoofer and speakers will be hooked up to my AMPLIFIER only.

In your case it wouldn't matter because you're driving everything from (I assume) just the stereo output of the streamer.

A lot of times, subwoofers are active and driven from pre-outs (or specially designated subwoofer outs) from DACs or preamps, and sometimes the sub outs even have filtering applied, so sub outs are considered desirable for that use case.

Will the mic hooked up to the A8 or A10, simply not listen to end result sound coming from my amp/spekers/sub, and make the necessary equalizer adjustments accordingly?

Yes, a simple EQ-based room correction will work that way. Other room correction schemes like Dirac ART need to control each speaker (including subs) separately to work.

#1. CAN the DMP A10 and A8 room correction feature be used if NOT using it as a preamp and only as a DAC/streamer, like some people say it can?

It should, especially if you are using the analog outputs I don't know why not.

#2. If the room correction can be used if using it only as a DAC/streamer, then why does the absence of a sub out on the A8 even matter, or the addition of one on the A10 even matter, when I won't have anything hooked up to the sub outs regardless.

See above.

I will just say, you might want to look at the various WiiM products if you are in the market for a streamer. They have room correction / PEQ, good streaming features, etc. The Eversolo is a really nice unit but IMO over-engineered and very expensive, if you don't need all the features you can probably save some real $$ and still do what you're planning to do here. Any difference in sound quality is overwhelmingly likely to be inaudible, almost every DAC (streamer, etc.) you can buy >$100 is operating beyond human hearing in normal use cases.

 

[marked sound]

In your case it wouldn't matter because you're driving everything from (I assume) just the stereo output of the streamer.

A lot of times, subwoofers are active and driven from pre-outs (or specially designated subwoofer outs) from DACs or preamps, and sometimes the sub outs even have filtering applied, so sub outs are considered desirable for that use case.


Yes, a simple EQ-based room correction will work that way. Other room correction schemes like Dirac ART need to control each speaker (including subs) separately to work.


It should, especially if you are using the analog outputs I don't know why not.


See above.

I will just say, you might want to look at the various WiiM products if you are in the market for a streamer. They have room correction / PEQ, good streaming features, etc. The Eversolo is a really nice unit but IMO over-engineered and very expensive, if you don't need all the features you can probably save some real $$ and still do what you're planning to do here. Any difference in sound quality is overwhelmingly likely to be inaudible, almost every DAC (streamer, etc.) you can buy >$100 is operating beyond human hearing in normal use cases.

Thank you very much for the reply. You explained it well enough for me to ask further questions.

#1. I know the the room correction settings of the A8 are strictly EQ based. Are you suspecting that the room correction settings of the A10 are more advanced, and are doing more than just EQ adjustments?

#2. If the EQ adjustments on the A10 are more than just EQ adjustments, then how do I take advantage of room correction settings when using the A10 as just a DAC/streamer?

#3. I am looking for a DAC/streamer that uses AKM chips not ESS. If the EverSolo products are expensive and over engineered, then what alternatives do you suggest that use AKM DAC chips?

Thanks again.

 

[kemmler3D]

Thank you very much for the reply. You explained it well enough for me to ask further questions.

#1. I know the the room correction settings of the A8 are strictly EQ based. Are you suspecting that the room correction settings of the A10 are more advanced, and are doing more than just EQ adjustments?

Extremely unlikely, they would market the feature heavily if it was more advanced.

#2. If the EQ adjustments on the A10 are more than just EQ adjustments, then how do I take advantage of room correction settings when using the A10 as just a DAC/streamer?

It probably would work the same way.

#3. I am looking for a DAC/streamer that uses AKM chips not ESS. If the EverSolo products are expensive and over engineered, then what alternatives do you suggest that use AKM DAC chips?

Thanks again.

AKM and ESS chips measure a little differently, but the differences are generally far below the threshold of hearing. The reputation AKM chips have for having a different sound in practice is completely unsubstantiated.

I would encourage you to find the streamer that has 1) the features you want, 2) the inputs / outputs you want, and don't worry about the rest. A DAC or streamer is the last place you should look for improvements in sound quality.

The standard advice in these situations is to save money on the DAC / streamer and put it towards speakers, acoustic treatment, a better amp if you need one, or maybe just a nice bottle of scotch.

DACs are said to be a "solved problem" in audio, in that it's very easy to find a transparent one. Case in point, this $24 dongle DAC puts out effectively perfect sound. You can pay more to get slightly less noise and distortion... but you won't hear any difference. -120dB is REALLY quiet... what you are really paying for in DACs or streamers are the features and I/O*. This is why the RME DACs are well-liked around here, even though they cost 3-10x DACs with similar sound quality.

*I will add that the Eversolo A10 has a ton of I/O and decent features to be sure. But just make sure you are paying for stuff you will actually use, and not just "the best" in an abstract sense.

 

[JustJones]

Not that it matters but the WiiM Pro Plus has an AKM chip. The Ultra uses ESS.

 

[Spkrdctr]

The chip doesn't matter and that is the last thing you should look at. Features, inputs/outputs, EQ/room correction are all more important than the type of DAC chip used. You will never hear the difference between the two chips. Also, if you can save money and get all the features you want with a cheaper product you save money. I would read Kemmler3Ds post over and over.

 

[marked sound]

Not that it matters but the WiiM Pro Plus has an AKM chip. The Ultra uses ESS.

Good to know! Will look into it.

Thanks!

 

[marked sound]

Extremely unlikely, they would market the feature heavily if it was more advanced.

It probably would work the same way.

AKM and ESS chips measure a little differently, but the differences are generally far below the threshold of hearing. The reputation AKM chips have for having a different sound in practice is completely unsubstantiated.

I would encourage you to find the streamer that has 1) the features you want, 2) the inputs / outputs you want, and don't worry about the rest. A DAC or streamer is the last place you should look for improvements in sound quality.

The standard advice in these situations is to save money on the DAC / streamer and put it towards speakers, acoustic treatment, a better amp if you need one, or maybe just a nice bottle of scotch.

DACs are said to be a "solved problem" in audio, in that it's very easy to find a transparent one. Case in point, this $24 dongle DAC puts out effectively perfect sound. You can pay more to get slightly less noise and distortion... but you won't hear any difference. -120dB is REALLY quiet... what you are really paying for in DACs or streamers are the features and I/O*. This is why the RME DACs are well-liked around here, even though they cost 3-10x DACs with similar sound quality.

*I will add that the Eversolo A10 has a ton of I/O and decent features to be sure. But just make sure you are paying for stuff you will actually use, and not just "the best" in an abstract sense.

My brother has the EverSolo DMP-A8 and I like it very much. It has a nice screen, is a great streamer, has an EQ, has a feature rich phone app, and now has room correction. It also "sounded better" than the internal DAC of the receiver and even another DAC tried. You can say that is subjective, but what am I to say? The perception was hat it sounded better. The two external DACs were similar in price and quality, the only major difference is the EverSolo A8 had an AKM chipset and the other DAC had an ESS chip set.

There are many reputable HiFi reviewers that also report the "ESS glare". There are even people that are well versed in measurements and graphs, (and who do their own measurements and graphs), that mention the ESS glare. Are these people out to lunch? Perhaps, but it's not like everyone reporting a glaring analytical sound of ESS chips is some drunken bum off the street, or some newbie audiophile that just picked up the hobby yesterday and has never heard of sound measurements before.

As for my other components I have all of those sorted out. I know the speakers I want and got a great deal. The amp I am choosing was put up against other amps 3x the price and it sounded way better. I have the subs picked out too.

My only thing I wanted sorted out was my dac and some dort of room correction. I was going to go with a MiniDSP for room correction however, the only MiniDSP with XLR connections was an expensive one with a DAC/Streamer, which I don't need as I am most likely getting the EverSolo A8.

By the way I do not mind being "schooled" in all of this. I am fully aware that I am a newbie and have lots to learn.

Thanks

 

[marked sound]

The chip doesn't matter and that is the last thing you should look at. Features, inputs/outputs, EQ/room correction are all more important than the type of DAC chip used. You will never hear the difference between the two chips. Also, if you can save money and get all the features you want with a cheaper product you save money. I would read Kemmler3Ds post over and over.

As I mentioned to Kemmier3D in my last post. There are reputable HiFi reviewers (even some who do their own graphs and measurements), that report an ESS glare. I get the point of the numbers or shall I say graphs don't lie. But here we are, people that understand the concepts of sound measurements reporting an audible glare from ESS cips. What am I to make of this?

 

[marked sound]

Not that it matters but the WiiM Pro Plus has an AKM chip. The Ultra uses ESS.

Unfortunately the WiiM Pro Plus does not have XLR connections, so it is a no go for me.

 

[kemmler3D]

My brother has the EverSolo DMP-A8 and I like it very much. It has a nice screen, is a great streamer, has an EQ, has a feature rich phone app, and now has room correction. It also "sounded better" than the internal DAC of the receiver and even another DAC tried. You can say that is subjective, but what am I to say? The perception was hat it sounded better. The two external DACs were similar in price and quality, the only major difference is the EverSolo A8 had an AKM chipset and the other DAC had an ESS chip set.

The Eversolo stuff is quality kit to be sure, if you are happy to pay the premium and you will use the features then go for it. But I wouldn't be holding up my end if I didn't point out that you can get equivalent functionality for less money.

There are many reputable HiFi reviewers that also report the "ESS glare". There are even people that are well versed in measurements and graphs, (and who do their own measurements and graphs), that mention the ESS glare. Are these people out to lunch? Perhaps, but it's not like everyone reporting a glaring analytical sound of ESS chips is some drunken bum off the street, or some newbie audiophile that just picked up the hobby yesterday and has never heard of sound measurements before.

As for my other components I have all of those sorted out. I know the speakers I want and got a great deal. The amp I am choosing was put up against other amps 3x the price and it sounded way better. I have the subs picked out too.

My only thing I wanted sorted out was my dac and some dort of room correction. I was going to go with a MiniDSP for room correction however, the only MiniDSP with XLR connections was an expensive one with a DAC/Streamer, which I don't need as I am most likely getting the EverSolo A8.

By the way I do not mind being "schooled" in all of this. I am fully aware that I am a newbie and have lots to learn.

Thanks

If any HiFi reviewers do proper blind testing to evaluate the sound of gear, you should listen to them on this. I mean level-matched with a multimeter, properly blind (ideally double blind), fast switching, ABX, whatever. In that case there is something to hang our hats on.

The "ESS Glare" or in mesurements "ESS hump" is definitely a known thing. But for some reason I haven't heard of any blind tests where people could actually identify it.

So why do so many people talk about it as if it sounded obvious to them? Bottom line, cognitive effects affect hearing a great deal, and if you expect to hear something you will almost always hear something.

This is why blind testing is so important. The reality is lots of reviewers - even "reputable" ones are effectively delusional about the differences between DACs, amps, (cables, ethernet switches, etc.) When you measure them the differences tend to be 80dB below signal.

Have you ever tried to listen to something 80dB below signal? Take any two sounds you want, put them in Audacity, lower the gain on one by 80dB and play them at the same time, you'll see what I mean. -80dB isn't considered that good for a DAC... but in practice it's virtually impossible to hear anything that far below the signal.

Just turn your music down by 80dB and see if you can still hear it... I turned mine down by 50dB just now and I had to put my ear right up to the tweeter and listen closely just to hear anything. -80dB is orders of magnitude quieter than that.

I mean ... people are out here writing whole reviews about the difference audiophile ethernet switches make on the sound. Even though it's technically impossible for them to affect the sound in any way. Consider the fact that their fellow "reputable" reviewers don't call them out for blatantly making stuff up.

The sad truth from my POV is that most of the industry subsists on a strong cocktail of BS and imagination.

people that understand the concepts of sound measurements reporting an audible glare from ESS cips. What am I to make of this?

Understanding measurements doesn't prevent you from hearing stuff that isn't there. Heck, it's happened to me more than once. There's a whole thread about it here.

And if you're trying to make money reviewing equipment, nobody is going to read your stuff (or send you review units) if you say "well, it sounds the same as the last one, because all of the noise and distortion is below the threshold of human hearing... like the last one".

 

[voodooless]

The two external DACs were similar in price and quality, the only major difference is the EverSolo A8 had an AKM chipset and the other DAC had an ESS chip set.

Sure, that was the only difference…

People talk all kinds of nonsense for all kinds of reasons, that doesn’t make it true.

 

[kemmler3D]

Unfortunately the WiiM Pro Plus does not have XLR connections, so it is a no go for me.

WiiM Pro optical out to a DAC of your choice with XLR would probably be cheaper than the A8 and still get you 10 bands of PEQ for room correction. And again, I'm not saying the A8 or A10 are bad options, just not the most budget-friendly one.

 

[Muddywaters]

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There are many reputable HiFi reviewers that also report the "ESS glare"…

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^^^^^
Fixed

If you truly want to be “schooled” you should consider seriously what the folks are pointing out to you. Not the noobtoob boys, print scribes and bloggers.

Sounds like there was no careful level matching in your DAC or amp tests and you probably knew what gear you were listening too as you evaluated the “sound” right?

Good Luck in your quest. Spend some time around here reading the reviews and threads on DAC performance and amps. You should advance quite a lot in your knowledge if you do.

 

[marked sound]

And if you're trying to make money reviewing equipment, nobody is going to read your stuff (or send you review units) if you say "well, it sounds the same as the last one, because all of the noise and distortion is below the threshold of human hearing... like the last one".

Thanks! That made me chuckle! And i get your point. I do believe some of these people actuslly believe they hear a difference thugh.

 

[marked sound]

^^^^^
Fixed

If you truly want to be “schooled” you should consider seriously what the folks are pointing out to you. Not the noobtoob boys, print scribes and bloggers.

Sounds like there was no careful level matching in your DAC or amp tests and you probably knew what gear you were listening too as you evaluated the “sound” right?

Good Luck in your quest. Spend some time around here reading the reviews and threads on DAC performance and amps. You should advance quite a lot in your knowledge if you do.

I knew what I was listening to however, the results weren't what I expected.

For example, the other amps I listened to were way more money than the one I was originally planning on buying, and I was fully expecting to get blown away by the more expensive amps and spend more money. It wasn't the case though.

The Amp I liked was an Advance Paris A12 Classic. The Amps it sounded better than to me were, a Hegel H600, Unison Research Unico 150, and an Electrocompaniet Amp (can't remember which one right now). The Unico is almost double the cost of the Advance Paris, The Hegel is 3x the price, and the Electrocompaniet is more money regardless of which model as well.

It took a tiny bit of time for the cord switching from one amp to the other, so one could argue that my "audio memory" would have dissipated by the time I heard the next amp. However, to me and the testing I did, the Advance Paris sounded better. So while I get what you are saying about confirmation bias, for what it's worth, the results were an opposite outcome than what I was expecting. So what am I to make of it?

Thanks

 

[kemmler3D]

some of these people actuslly believe they hear a difference thugh.

They definitely actually hear a difference! The problem is that the difference occurs in their brain and not the gear. When it comes to small subtle differences in distortion or noise, the effect of cognitive biases (expecting to hear something) tends to be much bigger than any real differences.

I think this is how otherwise knowledgeable people get involved in writing about stuff that isn't real. It's very convincing when you put yourself in a situation where you hear something that isn't really there, because you heard it, dammit! And so even if you know that theoretically you shouldn't hear any difference based on the measurements, you heard it! so either:

1) The measurements are wrong or incomplete, or:

2) My brain is tricking me, and I'm wrong.

Unfortunately but maybe not surprisingly, a lot of people prefer to go with #1, even knowledgeable people.

Example: The designer of Chord DACs (clearly a smart and knowledgeable guy) goes around asserting that he can hear noise and artifacts at -300dB, which is just completely insane. If you could hear things that quiet, you could literally hear someone cough ON MARS. (if there were air in space.) He would be kept awake at night by the deafening roar of air molecules bouncing off his eardrum. I'm not sure if he believes it or he just knows his audience has their brains switched off.

Unfortunately, the only way to get around this is rigorous blind testing, which is a huge pain in the butt. Blind tests also tend to eliminate almost all of the differences reviewers say they hear in DACs or amps. Which is another reason people don't do them. Like I said, they need something to write about.

So what am I to make of it?

When testing amps, the most important thing is level matching, which has to be very exact. A 1dB or less difference in gain won't sound louder, but it does sound subtly better. If you don't get amps within +/- 0.1dB or so, the comparison isn't totally valid. So maybe the amp you liked just had slightly more gain than the other ones.

This is known as "loudness effect" and it's well-documented. In fact, this is why some receivers and preamps have a loudness knob or button - at low volume, you need to add a little treble/bass boost to make the tonality of the music the same as if it were turned up louder.

 

[marked sound]

They definitely actually hear a difference! The problem is that the difference occurs in their brain and not the gear. When it comes to small subtle differences in distortion or noise, the effect of cognitive biases (expecting to hear something) tends to be much bigger than any real differences.

Unfortunately, the only way to get around this is rigorous blind testing, which is a huge pain in the butt. Blind tests also tend to eliminate almost all of the differences reviewers say they hear in DACs or amps. Which is another reason people don't do them. Like I said, they need something to write about.



When testing amps, the most important thing is level matching, which has to be very exact. A 1dB or less difference in gain won't sound louder, but it does sound subtly better. If you don't get amps within +/- 0.1dB or so, the comparison isn't totally valid. So maybe the amp you liked just had slightly more gain than the other ones.

This is known as "loudness effect" and it's well-documented. In fact, this is why some receivers and preamps have a loudness knob or button - at low volume, you need to add a little treble/bass boost to make the tonality of the music the same as if it were turned up louder.

I definitely don't think it was loudness, because the other Amps sounded worse in different ways. One sounded very flat and another sounded very harsh etc. Or are you saying the loudness was too low on the one that sounded flat and too high on the one that sounded harsh?

 

[kemmler3D]

are you saying the loudness was too low on the one that sounded flat and too high on the one that sounded harsh?

Volume slightly lower would tend to make something sound flat or lifeless in a subtle way.

Harsh could be a little too much gain at the other end, it could also be due to distortion if the amp didn't have enough juice.

People also sometimes say that they hear things due to expectation bias that aren't literally what they expected. Your brain knows something is changing and therefore you hear a change, but it's a little unpredictable exactly what the change might be.

 

[Muddywaters]

You’ll find exploring here that biases aren’t predictable in the sense you are anticipating. Subconsciously things aren’t quite so simple. So eliminating visual references, (knowing), what’s what takes the clues away, allowing you actually hear the sound unencumbered by any baggage whatsoever.

Also importantly you didn’t take into account level matching. It is to critical match the levels preferably to .1dB you’ll see this referenced repeatedly here. The gain structure of amps varies, you need to account for that. Simple dvm ie digital volt meter suffices. No exotic test equipment needed.

Applies to both your DAC and amp testing. Amps and speaker matching can be necessary if you end up choosing some difficult to drive speakers that drop sub 4 ohm possibly.

Aural memory is very low quality you are correct.