Need a good DAC pairing for the 2.0 stereo

[richard12511]

OP , based on some of the things you've said, I believe you may have some misguided ideas and expectations about what a good DAC can do for your system.

In particular, statements like,

"I also prefer improved soundstage and detailing / imaging"
"I want quality and not quantity in the low-end with good grip, control and precision."
"I am in need a great DAC pairing"

lead me to believe that you're wanting to purchase a new DAC for the purpose of improving the sound quality of the system. Is that true? If so, don't do that. Trying to improve the sound of your system is not a valid reason to purchase a DAC. If your goal is high fidelity sound, and your current DAC is "sufficient"(most are), then it's impossible to improve the sound quality of your system with a DAC. "Sufficient" means "perfect to beyond the limits of human hearing". As for what counts as a "sufficient" dac, there can be some debate, but the vast majority of dacs are absolutely sufficient. If you want to test for yourself, take this test over on AVS. If you fail that test(everyone who's taken it so far has failed), then you will know for sure that $8 is enough to attain "perfect to beyond the limits of *your hearing", and there's really no need spend $1000.

Even with a $500,000 budget, you can't make it any better; you can only make it worse. The same is true for most audio electronics(amps, pre-amps, dacs, cables). The only things you can purchase that will really change the objective(passible without peeking) sound quality(detail, imaging, precision, etc.) of your system are:

1. Better or more speakers/subwoofers
2. Better DSP/Room Correction
3. Room treatments

That said, there are legitimate reasons to purchase new DACs.

1. Improved connectivity and useability - Will this DAC make it easier to connect some of your current devices? Or, even better, will it allow you to connect additional devices to your system? Does it support different formats that you need for some of your music listening? Does it make it easier to stream music from your system? A good example would be the suggestion that @Jimbob54 mentioned above.

2. DSP/Room correction - DSP/Room correction can dramatically improve the sound of your system, and some DACs may come with very good DSP/Room correction systems. Maybe look for DACs that come with Dirac Live, as that system is exceptional for the price.

3. You want to support good engineering - You know that it won't bring you any real sonic improvements, but you'd like to support a company who you believe to be doing good science or engineering. Think of it like donating money to a charity or engineering society that you like, and as a bonus, they give you a free device that can help you with reasons 1 & 2.

There may be more reasons, but those are a few I could think of on the spot.

If your reasoning for wanting to buy a DAC is one of these reasons, then go for it, but go for something that maximizes that reason. If your "why" is reason 1, then go for something that maximizes that, and (assuming it's normally sufficient)don't worry about measurements. If your "why" is reason 3, then buy whichever DAC has the best measurements, or buy from the company which you most want to support.

Let me ask you another, related question. What is your $1,000 budget really for? Is that $1,000 strictly for buying a new DAC, regardless of the improvements it may or may not bring? Or, is your $1,000 budget for improving the sound quality of your system, and the DAC is just a means to that end?

If it's the latter, then I would say that there's much more effective ways to use that money to reach that goal.

Are there aesthetic or logistical reasons why you can't add a pair of subwoofers? If not, then a pair of Rythmik L12s plus a miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate those subs would drastically improve the sound, and would be only slightly over budget. You could swap the Rythmiks for a pair of SVS 1000s(SB or PB) if the budget is strict.

If you can't have separate subwoofers for aesthetic or logistical reasons, then a DDRC-88A could also drastically improve your sound quality, and it's right on budget .

I realize that much of this is probably very contrary to most of what you've heard on other forums or sites like youtube. In the face of contrasting advices, my "advice" would be to take a step back. Don't make any big purchase decisions yet. Spend awhile researching the science of good DACs and how that relates to human hearing and thresholds of audibility. Look up double blind tests that have been done between various electronics, and look at the results. This site can be great resource for much of that research, and perhaps others can provide links.

Once you've spent a good deal of time on that, you should be able to make a more well informed decision on who's advice to believe.

Also, I just want to say, welcome. If your goal is to improve your audio system as much as possible for the money, then you've come to the right place. They're are some incredible scientists/engineers here that regularly share their knowledge and make this a great place to learn. The guidance you'll get here is better than any other audio forum or site out there.

 

[A Surfer]

I agree, while I am a long standing, advanced posting member over at head-fi.org, the vast majority of members are only interested in subjective discussions and most in my experience are impervious to any scientific scrutiny penetrating into the subjective love fest. I just now have been engaged in a respectful discussion with several members who insist that the mega buck Chord DACs and devices they own clearly sound different from one another and better than any less expensive offerings, so much so that there is no need for blind listening, level matched, multiple trial testing. Sigh. I am shifting my time away from head-fi to this community now as I cannot abide such inflexibility. I feel that where esoteric gear such as much of the Chord line of products proves that a fool and their money is soon parted.

 

[DSJR]

Thank you for your detailed reply, DSJR.


They say that Rega are tuneful and fast amps but slightly on the leaner side of neutral. The Q Acoustics 3050i being floor standers would be slightly to the warm side (just assuming since haven't tried them yet). The Belden cable I will be using is neutral. Hence a balanced DAC will be a good combination to have in this chain.

What are your thoughts on this.

I've only heard your speakers quickly and to my old ears they're fine, in a laid back kind of way (better to do this at the price than take your fillings out...). The Brio R should be great fun with them.

Brio R lean side of neutral? It certainly doesn't add ripe distortions in the bass and after 3/4 hour for the circuit to warm through, I'd say it's very neutral within it's power limits but it may well get a bit 'out of control' if you push it too hard (some amps make you wince when they're driven beyond their limits and others merely close up and go fuzzy or compressed). All Rega amps seem to 'sound' the same via their line inputs, but the limits raise as the power output goes up - I have directly compared a Brio R with their top Osiris model and they do broadly sound the same at lower volumes...

 

[pogballistics]

OP , based on some of the things you've said, I believe you may have some misguided ideas and expectations about what a good DAC can do for your system.

In particular, statements like,

"I also prefer improved soundstage and detailing / imaging"
"I want quality and not quantity in the low-end with good grip, control and precision."
"I am in need a great DAC pairing"

lead me to believe that you're wanting to purchase a new DAC for the purpose of improving the sound quality of the system. Is that true? If so, don't do that. Trying to improve the sound of your system is not a valid reason to purchase a DAC. If your goal is high fidelity sound, and your current DAC is "sufficient"(most are), then it's impossible to improve the sound quality of your system with a DAC. "Sufficient" means "perfect to beyond the limits of human hearing". As for what counts as a "sufficient" dac, there can be some debate, but the vast majority of dacs are absolutely sufficient. If you want to test for yourself, take this test over on AVS. If you fail that test(everyone who's taken it so far has failed), then you will know for sure that $8 is enough to attain "perfect to beyond the limits of *your hearing", and there's really no need spend $1000.

Even with a $500,000 budget, you can't make it any better; you can only make it worse. The same is true for most audio electronics(amps, pre-amps, dacs, cables). The only things you can purchase that will really change the objective(passible without peeking) sound quality(detail, imaging, precision, etc.) of your system are:

1. Better or more speakers/subwoofers
2. Better DSP/Room Correction
3. Room treatments

That said, there are legitimate reasons to purchase new DACs.

1. Improved connectivity and useability - Will this DAC make it easier to connect some of your current devices? Or, even better, will it allow you to connect additional devices to your system? Does it support different formats that you need for some of your music listening? Does it make it easier to stream music from your system? A good example would be the suggestion that @Jimbob54 mentioned above.

2. DSP/Room correction - DSP/Room correction can dramatically improve the sound of your system, and some DACs may come with very good DSP/Room correction systems. Maybe look for DACs that come with Dirac Live, as that system is exceptional for the price.

3. You want to support good engineering - You know that it won't bring you any real sonic improvements, but you'd like to support a company who you believe to be doing good science or engineering. Think of it like donating money to a charity or engineering society that you like, and as a bonus, they give you a free device that can help you with reasons 1 & 2.

There may be more reasons, but those are a few I could think of on the spot.

If your reasoning for wanting to buy a DAC is one of these reasons, then go for it, but go for something that maximizes that reason. If your "why" is reason 1, then go for something that maximizes that, and (assuming it's normally sufficient)don't worry about measurements. If your "why" is reason 3, then buy whichever DAC has the best measurements, or buy from the company which you most want to support.

Let me ask you another, related question. What is your $1,000 budget really for? Is that $1,000 strictly for buying a new DAC, regardless of the improvements it may or may not bring? Or, is your $1,000 budget for improving the sound quality of your system, and the DAC is just a means to that end?

If it's the latter, then I would say that there's much more effective ways to use that money to reach that goal.

Are there aesthetic or logistical reasons why you can't add a pair of subwoofers? If not, then a pair of Rythmik L12s plus a miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate those subs would drastically improve the sound, and would be only slightly over budget. You could swap the Rythmiks for a pair of SVS 1000s(SB or PB) if the budget is strict.

If you can't have separate subwoofers for aesthetic or logistical reasons, then a DDRC-88A could also drastically improve your sound quality, and it's right on budget .

I realize that much of this is probably very contrary to most of what you've heard on other forums or sites like youtube. In the face of contrasting advices, my "advice" would be to take a step back. Don't make any big purchase decisions yet. Spend awhile researching the science of good DACs and how that relates to human hearing and thresholds of audibility. Look up double blind tests that have been done between various electronics, and look at the results. This site can be great resource for much of that research, and perhaps others can provide links.

Once you've spent a good deal of time on that, you should be able to make a more well informed decision on who's advice to believe.

Also, I just want to say, welcome. If your goal is to improve your audio system as much as possible for the money, then you've come to the right place. They're are some incredible scientists/engineers here that regularly share their knowledge and make this a great place to learn. The guidance you'll get here is better than any other audio forum or site out there.

Wow. Such a detailed and informative reply.

The reason I don't wanna add a sub is becos I already purchased floor standing speakers ie 3050i and with addition of subs the sound will become very bassy which I am not interested in.

I beleive fs speakers can themselves sufficient for a good stereo experience. Also, the integrated amp that I will be pairing it with doesn't have a sub out.

When I first purchased a DAC for my headphones, I noticed a great amount of change in the Sound Quality. It was an Ifi Audio Zen DAC using a BB Native chipset. Then I purchased a Zorloo Ztella which had ESS Sabre chip and noticed that the SQ improved with it as well. However both DACs improved the SQ in different ways and added a bit of their own style. To summarise the results, I found the ESS based Ztella more lean and accurate sounding with a better imaging compared to the Burr Brown based Zen Dac.

Due to the above, I was under the impression that DACs also have the potential to improve the sound of the system a bit further.

Floor standing Q Acoustics 3050i would be slightly warm side of neutral and Rega is an almost Balanced Integrated Amp. Keeping this in mind I thought I should go for a DAC which will make the output sound a bit more to the neutral side with a rhythmic drive and accuracy.

Hence, my reason for this post.
Thank you for your warm welcome.

There is a lot of info and lots to learn from the experienced people here ,

 

[Eetu]

Wow. Such a detailed and informative reply.

The reason I don't wanna add a sub is becos I already purchased floor standing speakers ie 3050i and with addition of subs the sound will become very bassy which I am not interested in.

I beleive fs speakers can themselves sufficient for a good stereo experience. Also, the integrated amp that I will be pairing it with doesn't have a sub out.

When I first purchased a DAC for my headphones, I noticed a great amount of change in the Sound Quality. It was an Ifi Audio Zen DAC using a BB Native chipset. Then I purchased a Zorloo Ztella which had ESS Sabre chip and noticed that the SQ improved with it as well. However both DACs improved the SQ in different ways and added a bit of their own style. To summarise the results, I found the ESS based Ztella more lean and accurate sounding with a better imaging compared to the Burr Brown based Zen Dac.

Due to the above, I was under the impression that DACs also have the potential to improve the sound of the system a bit further.

Floor standing Q Acoustics 3050i would be slightly warm side of neutral and Rega is an almost Balanced Integrated Amp. Keeping this in mind I thought I should go for a DAC which will make the output sound a bit more to the neutral side with a rhythmic drive and accuracy.

Hence, my reason for this post.
Thank you for your warm welcome.

There is a lot of info and lots to learn from the experienced people here ,

I agree, @richard12511 did a great job explaining why a new DAC isn't the best use of money. But I also understand that the knowledge that there are better DACs out there may keep nagging you. If that's the case get one Amir reviewed, from the blue tier (I suggested the Schiit Modius previously) with the features you want and then you can focus on other things

Adding a sub would indeed be a great upgrade. It will sound deep & fast, not boomy or bloated but imo needs proper integration (EQ, calibration mic).

If you're using Roon have you tried the PEQ there? For example, the NRC measurements show that the 3050i listening window has a valley ~1.5-3khz which make the speakers sound laid-back. A low-Q ~3db compensation at ~2khz might be worth experimenting with. And this is coming back to Richard's 2nd point: I would get an UMIK-1 mic (100€/$75) and use REW (free) together with Roon's PEQ/convolution to address response and room issues.

 

[A Surfer]

Yes, get subs. If you have heard a sub supported system sounding boomy the subs are likely turned up too much and or the crossover point is set too high. I have a rather small room with large Monitor Audio PL200 towers on their own with measurable ability down to about 32Hz. I support those with not one, but two REL T-Zero subs and I do not have boomy bass at all. At one point I did and that was simply because I needed to turn down the subs. In the ideal world I will one day invest in a very well done external crossover that allows me to only send frequencies above say 50Hz to the towers and everything below to the subs. I am trying to learn about this as I am sure as with anything in audio there are pros and cons, but in theory it seems like it should be a good thing.

Regardless, even now with two subs in a small room I do not have muddy, booming bass.

 

[pogballistics]

As the Brio is an integrated amp, you just need a good USB DAC with fixed volume.
I'd give this one a try.
Don't be fooled by the price: look at the measured performances!

You may spend the remaining money on a Roon lifetime license, as an example.

I think the E30 is measuring better.
I will be using USB as input and RCA as output (no other options)

 

[pogballistics]

The current Brio amp (since 2009 or so) is very well behaved generally and not designed specifically for very low distortion, instead spreading what it does have evenly over the harmonic spectrum and below audible limits I believe. It can be used with ANY decent modern dac and as said above in not so many words, dacs are commodities these days and can usually be safely chosen on facilities, price and visuals.

I'd suggest a Topping D10s or more versatile E30, could comfortably out-perform a Rega Dac these days (the Rega dac 'sounded' very nice to me, but maybe there's a touch of added 'warmth' to the tone - Stereophile measured the Rega dac so interested parties can take a look there and compare).

It would appear that dac's with a 'sound' to them, usually measure less in certain areas, but the good performing ones tend to 'sound' much the same if fairly compared and they reproduce differences in recordings, venues and so on with consummate ease.

Honestly, *these days* you don't need to spend more than the E30 with this amp and speakers, unless you want better visuals or maybe a 'story' to go with it. The amp's performance will swamp any distortion in the dac and I swear I'm not being critical here, as I love the current issue Brio and know it very well (the original 'clamshell cased' Brio from the 1990's was gutless and ran out of breath very quickly). An outgoing Topping D10 will NOT be out-classed by a Brio R I promise you!!!!!


P.S. There's a chap on facebook who wants a quite pricy 're-clocker' to go with his thirty year old second-tier (but dressed to be audiophile first tier) UK made dac. I mentioned the E30 as regards performance achievable these days and he wasn't having any of it! Audiophile (audiophool) mindsets are all but impossible to break, but some are seeing the light a little more these days, as thorough high resolution measurements just don't lie, unlike subjective opinions which are true to the person making them and very few others really...

I think I will settle for this one soon.
Can you please recommend how to cleanup the USB input cos I have no other option but use usb as input.

 

[pogballistics]

I agree, @richard12511 did a great job explaining why a new DAC isn't the best use of money. But I also understand that the knowledge that there are better DACs out there may keep nagging you. If that's the case get one Amir reviewed, from the blue tier (I suggested the Schiit Modius previously) with the features you want and then you can focus on other things

Adding a sub would indeed be a great upgrade. It will sound deep & fast, not boomy or bloated but imo needs proper integration (EQ, calibration mic).

If you're using Roon have you tried the PEQ there? For example, the NRC measurements show that the 3050i listening window has a valley ~1.5-3khz which make the speakers sound laid-back. A low-Q ~3db compensation at ~2khz might be worth experimenting with. And this is coming back to Richard's 2nd point: I would get an UMIK-1 mic (100€/$75) and use REW (free) together with Roon's PEQ/convolution to address response and room issues.

Hey can you guide me further on this...
Or maybe a screenshot of the PEQ setting will help.

Also, as per the measurement you have linked how does the 3050i hold up. Do you also have the same speakers.
Thanks

 

[DSJR]

I think I will settle for this one soon.
Can you please recommend how to cleanup the USB input cos I have no other option but use usb as input.

It's my understanding that *modern* USB inputs are pretty much immune to excess noise and substituting a 'cleaner' effectlively makes no difference. if you still think it might, while scanning the Schiit site I came across this -

https://www.schiit-europe.com/index.php/schiit-wyrd.html

I think it's still available but know little as to whether it's needed these days, let alone available as it's not easily accessible on their main site..

 

[Rja4000]

if you still think it might, while scanning the Schiit site I came across this -

https://www.schiit-europe.com/index.php/schiit-wyrd.html

Quoting Amir:
"As many of us suspect, products like Schiit do nothing to improve the output of DACs."
"I can NOT recommend the Schiit Wyrd. It does nothing that your DAC needs and is yet another contraption taking space on your desk."

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measurements-of-schiit-wyrd-usb-filter.5717/

 

[Bear123]

OP , based on some of the things you've said, I believe you may have some misguided ideas and expectations about what a good DAC can do for your system.

In particular, statements like,

"I also prefer improved soundstage and detailing / imaging"
"I want quality and not quantity in the low-end with good grip, control and precision."
"I am in need a great DAC pairing"

lead me to believe that you're wanting to purchase a new DAC for the purpose of improving the sound quality of the system. Is that true? If so, don't do that. Trying to improve the sound of your system is not a valid reason to purchase a DAC. If your goal is high fidelity sound, and your current DAC is "sufficient"(most are), then it's impossible to improve the sound quality of your system with a DAC. "Sufficient" means "perfect to beyond the limits of human hearing". As for what counts as a "sufficient" dac, there can be some debate, but the vast majority of dacs are absolutely sufficient. If you want to test for yourself, take this test over on AVS. If you fail that test(everyone who's taken it so far has failed), then you will know for sure that $8 is enough to attain "perfect to beyond the limits of *your hearing", and there's really no need spend $1000.

Even with a $500,000 budget, you can't make it any better; you can only make it worse. The same is true for most audio electronics(amps, pre-amps, dacs, cables). The only things you can purchase that will really change the objective(passible without peeking) sound quality(detail, imaging, precision, etc.) of your system are:

1. Better or more speakers/subwoofers
2. Better DSP/Room Correction
3. Room treatments

That said, there are legitimate reasons to purchase new DACs.

1. Improved connectivity and useability - Will this DAC make it easier to connect some of your current devices? Or, even better, will it allow you to connect additional devices to your system? Does it support different formats that you need for some of your music listening? Does it make it easier to stream music from your system? A good example would be the suggestion that @Jimbob54 mentioned above.

2. DSP/Room correction - DSP/Room correction can dramatically improve the sound of your system, and some DACs may come with very good DSP/Room correction systems. Maybe look for DACs that come with Dirac Live, as that system is exceptional for the price.

3. You want to support good engineering - You know that it won't bring you any real sonic improvements, but you'd like to support a company who you believe to be doing good science or engineering. Think of it like donating money to a charity or engineering society that you like, and as a bonus, they give you a free device that can help you with reasons 1 & 2.

There may be more reasons, but those are a few I could think of on the spot.

If your reasoning for wanting to buy a DAC is one of these reasons, then go for it, but go for something that maximizes that reason. If your "why" is reason 1, then go for something that maximizes that, and (assuming it's normally sufficient)don't worry about measurements. If your "why" is reason 3, then buy whichever DAC has the best measurements, or buy from the company which you most want to support.

Let me ask you another, related question. What is your $1,000 budget really for? Is that $1,000 strictly for buying a new DAC, regardless of the improvements it may or may not bring? Or, is your $1,000 budget for improving the sound quality of your system, and the DAC is just a means to that end?

If it's the latter, then I would say that there's much more effective ways to use that money to reach that goal.

Are there aesthetic or logistical reasons why you can't add a pair of subwoofers? If not, then a pair of Rythmik L12s plus a miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate those subs would drastically improve the sound, and would be only slightly over budget. You could swap the Rythmiks for a pair of SVS 1000s(SB or PB) if the budget is strict.

If you can't have separate subwoofers for aesthetic or logistical reasons, then a DDRC-88A could also drastically improve your sound quality, and it's right on budget .

I realize that much of this is probably very contrary to most of what you've heard on other forums or sites like youtube. In the face of contrasting advices, my "advice" would be to take a step back. Don't make any big purchase decisions yet. Spend awhile researching the science of good DACs and how that relates to human hearing and thresholds of audibility. Look up double blind tests that have been done between various electronics, and look at the results. This site can be great resource for much of that research, and perhaps others can provide links.

Once you've spent a good deal of time on that, you should be able to make a more well informed decision on who's advice to believe.

Also, I just want to say, welcome. If your goal is to improve your audio system as much as possible for the money, then you've come to the right place. They're are some incredible scientists/engineers here that regularly share their knowledge and make this a great place to learn. The guidance you'll get here is better than any other audio forum or site out there.

Wow, an absolutely fantastic post, and a very noble attempt to truly help the OP. It appears that based on his follow up responses, it has fallen largely on deaf ears. Very difficult to break through the religious audiophile zealotry. Too bad adding subs and eq wouldn't improve his sound quality, but would rather make things too bass heavy.

Truly a noble effort though. Maybe if he spends enough time here with an open mind, things will sink in.

 

[pogballistics]

Yes. I am all ears and open to every suggestion. The post you have quoted is really good and comes from years of experience. I have not ignored it at all. The reason why I wrote that adding sub isn't an option is becos of my room constraints + my amplifier doesn't support sub out. Thanks for your post.

 

[Bear123]

Yes, get subs. If you have heard a sub supported system sounding boomy the subs are likely turned up too much and or the crossover point is set too high. I have a rather small room with large Monitor Audio PL200 towers on their own with measurable ability down to about 32Hz. I support those with not one, but two REL T-Zero subs and I do not have boomy bass at all. At one point I did and that was simply because I needed to turn down the subs. In the ideal world I will one day invest in a very well done external crossover that allows me to only send frequencies above say 50Hz to the towers and everything below to the subs. I am trying to learn about this as I am sure as with anything in audio there are pros and cons, but in theory it seems like it should be a good thing.

Regardless, even now with two subs in a small room I do not have muddy, booming bass.

Do you have bass management and eq? Measurements? If not, you may have lots of nearly free sound quality improvement left on the table. A good thing!

 

[Bear123]

Yes. I am all ears and open to every suggestion. The post you have quoted is really good and comes from years of experience. I have not ignored it at all. The reason why I wrote that adding sub isn't an option is becos of my room constraints + my amplifier doesn't support sub out. Thanks for your post.

If upgrading your amp/electronics to something with built in bass management, room eq, and sub eq is not a viable option, there are affordable options as mentioned that will give you this capability well within budget. MiniDSP 2x4 HD is probably the cheapest way to achieve this. Umik-1 microphone along with REW should do the trick. Under $300, plus whatever sub/subs you decide on if you are willing to place and integrate them.

 

[A Surfer]

Do you have bass management and eq? Measurements? If not, you may have lots of nearly free sound quality improvement left on the table. A good thing!

I don't, and I agree that it is a good thing that I have room to improve almost certainly. The room I am in now isn't likely to be my room for more than a year so I may simply live with whatever deficiencies are there, learn about testing for issues and using bass management to correct them for my next room.

My M3 is a nice integrated and does what I need, but I don't think that I can use it directly for bass management and I do not have the capacity to add another device into the mix currently. With my REL subs I run them directly from the same speaker terminals as the mains so I can't really use bass management techniques as I am unable to target which speakers are being attenuated. I have thought of using external crossovers, but I can only imagine that they bring with them a number of pros and cons so I am not sure if I would end up ahead of the game anyway or just simply swap compromises in the sound. I would be open to thoughts and suggestions of course.

 

[pogballistics]

Wow, an absolutely fantastic post, and a very noble attempt to truly help the OP. It appears that based on his follow up responses, it has fallen largely on deaf ears. Very difficult to break through the religious audiophile zealotry. Too bad adding subs and eq wouldn't improve his sound quality, but would rather make things too bass heavy.

Truly a noble effort though. Maybe if he spends enough time here with an open mind, things will sink in.

Btw I added a PEQ on Roon

 

[A Surfer]

Adding subs does not have to shift the sound to being too bass heavy, that is up to the end user. Even without proper measurement our ears are still capable of telling us if the bass is overblown. While unsophisticated and imperfect at the moment I have simply turned down my subs and set the frequency that they kick in at where I think makes sense and works. I am looking forward to having the skills and time to do a better job down the road, but for now I have to and generally do trust my ears to be at least crudely capable of helping find a good tuning.

 

[Bear123]

I don't, and I agree that it is a good thing that I have room to improve almost certainly. The room I am in now isn't likely to be my room for more than a year so I may simply live with whatever deficiencies are there, learn about testing for issues and using bass management to correct them for my next room.

My M3 is a nice integrated and does what I need, but I don't think that I can use it directly for bass management and I do not have the capacity to add another device into the mix currently. With my REL subs I run them directly from the same speaker terminals as the mains so I can't really use bass management techniques as I am unable to target which speakers are being attenuated. I have thought of using external crossovers, but I can only imagine that they bring with them a number of pros and cons so I am not sure if I would end up ahead of the game anyway or just simply swap compromises in the sound. I would be open to thoughts and suggestions of course.

Well, its not my area of expertise, since I use an AVR with bass management, room eq, and subwoofer eq. However, I think the miniDSP 2x4HD would be a solution. AFAIK, it would allow you to input your signal into the miniDSP, apply a crossover, and send a signal to your subs and speakers with 4 outputs. Each channel has very powerful DSP capability with multiple PEQ filters that should allow you to tame your in room response of your speakers below Schroeder and get a nice smooth response from your subs. Even tailor in a rising house curve on the subs if desired.
$280
MiniDSP 2x4 HD with Umik-1 mic

 

[A Surfer]

Well, its not my area of expertise, since I use an AVR with bass management, room eq, and subwoofer eq. However, I think the miniDSP 2x4HD would be a solution. AFAIK, it would allow you to input your signal into the miniDSP, apply a crossover, and send a signal to your subs and speakers with 4 outputs. Each channel has very powerful DSP capability with multiple PEQ filters that should allow you to tame your in room response of your speakers below Schroeder and get a nice smooth response from your subs. Even tailor in a rising house curve on the subs if desired.
$280
MiniDSP 2x4 HD with Umik-1 mic

Thank you, I think I will look into this as an idea. I appreciate you taking the time to make a suggestion. Cheers.