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Need a good DAC pairing for the 2.0 stereo

pogballistics

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I have recently ordered tbe Q Acoustics 3050i floor standing speakers.

I will power it with a Rega Brio Amp (2017).
I'm using Belden 8477 as speaker cables.

My source is Dell i5 3rd generation using Roon Labs ( Offline files downloaded / purchased from Qobuz and Tidal).

I am in need a great DAC pairing for my above chain. Please suggest some options. My Budget is under 1000$.

I would want something which does not have a pre-amp module since I'm using an Integrated amp and hence pre-amp module would be of no use to me.

I want quality and not quantity in the low-end with good grip, control and precision.

I also prefer improved soundstage and detailing / imaging.
 

MarsianC#

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I guess you came to the wrong place. Measurments >> erverything else (at least with electronics).
Looking at SINAD per Bucks you might want to check out Topping D90/DX7 Pro. Or save some bucks and invest in room acoustics, drinks and more music ;)
 

DJBonoBobo

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This one looks like it has good grip:
xdsd-DSC_3013-768x472.jpg
 

ZolaIII

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SMSL M500 V2 for around 400$, SMSL M300 MKII for 240. Even the dongle alike TempoTec Sonata HD Pro 40~42$ is more than sufficient enough as input to that amplifier. There's a chart, pick up what ever suits you with SINAD of 110 dB or more & you are good to go regarding DAC for as long as it works.
 
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Rja4000

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As the Brio is an integrated amp, you just need a good USB DAC with fixed volume.
I'd give this one a try.
Don't be fooled by the price: look at the measured performances!

You may spend the remaining money on a Roon lifetime license, as an example.
 
OP
pogballistics

pogballistics

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Thanks Rja,

Altho this quote from Amir in the article you linked has got me thinking:

"If your amplifier requires 1 volt to reach its maximum power, your DAC SINAD is between 107 to 110 dB depending on channel. This means if you have an amplifier with SINAD of 100 dB, the DAC contributions will be insignificant (you want upstream devices to be 10 dB better)."

Can you please help me out and check the Rega Brio spec sheet and if this Topping D10s will be a compatible pairing (as far as SINAD is concerned).

As I don't want the DAC contribution to be insignificant as mentioned.

Thanks much
As the Brio is an integrated amp, you just need a good USB DAC with fixed volume.
I'd hive this one a try.
Don't be fooled by the price: look at the measured performances!

You may spend the remaining money on a Roon lifetime license, as an example.
 
OP
pogballistics

pogballistics

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SMSL M500 V2 for around 400$, SMSL M300 MKII for 240. Even the dongle alike TempoTec Sonata HD Pro 40~42$ is more than sufficient enough as input to that amplifier. There's a chart, pick up what ever suits you with SINAD of 110 dB or more & you are good to go regarding DAC for as long as it works.

Thank you, Zolalll

What do you mean by SINAD of 110db or more.
Amir has quoted the below but I don't understand it as I'm a newbie and trying to setup my first HiFi system.

The following is the quote:

"If your amplifier requires 1 volt to reach its maximum power, your DAC SINAD is between 107 to 110 dB depending on channel. This means if you have an amplifier with SINAD of 100 dB, the DAC contributions will be insignificant (you want upstream devices to be 10 dB better)."

I am completely unaware about the Rega Brio SINAD. Can you look that up for me and let me know. I don't want the DAC contributions to be insignificant.

You also mentioned a chart. I am not able to find it. It would be great if you can link it up as well.

Thanks
 

DSJR

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The current Brio amp (since 2009 or so) is very well behaved generally and not designed specifically for very low distortion, instead spreading what it does have evenly over the harmonic spectrum and below audible limits I believe. It can be used with ANY decent modern dac and as said above in not so many words, dacs are commodities these days and can usually be safely chosen on facilities, price and visuals.

I'd suggest a Topping D10s or more versatile E30, could comfortably out-perform a Rega Dac these days (the Rega dac 'sounded' very nice to me, but maybe there's a touch of added 'warmth' to the tone - Stereophile measured the Rega dac so interested parties can take a look there and compare).

It would appear that dac's with a 'sound' to them, usually measure less in certain areas, but the good performing ones tend to 'sound' much the same if fairly compared and they reproduce differences in recordings, venues and so on with consummate ease.

Honestly, *these days* you don't need to spend more than the E30 with this amp and speakers, unless you want better visuals or maybe a 'story' to go with it. The amp's performance will swamp any distortion in the dac and I swear I'm not being critical here, as I love the current issue Brio and know it very well (the original 'clamshell cased' Brio from the 1990's was gutless and ran out of breath very quickly). An outgoing Topping D10 will NOT be out-classed by a Brio R I promise you!!!!!


P.S. There's a chap on facebook who wants a quite pricy 're-clocker' to go with his thirty year old second-tier (but dressed to be audiophile first tier) UK made dac. I mentioned the E30 as regards performance achievable these days and he wasn't having any of it! Audiophile (audiophool) mindsets are all but impossible to break, but some are seeing the light a little more these days, as thorough high resolution measurements just don't lie, unlike subjective opinions which are true to the person making them and very few others really...
 
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Rja4000

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Thanks Rja,

Altho this quote from Amit in the article you linked has got me thinking:

"If your amplifier requires 1 volt to reach its maximum power, your DAC SINAD is between 107 to 110 dB depending on channel. This means if you have an amplifier with SINAD of 100 dB, the DAC contributions will be insignificant (you want upstream devices to be 10 dB better)."

Can you please help me out and check the Rega Brio spec sheet and if this Topping D10s will be a compatible pairing (as far as SINAD is concerned).

As I don't want the DAC contribution to be insignificant as mentioned.

Thanks much
What he means by "insignificant" is that you won't hear (ever) any sound degradation due to the DAC.
That means it will perfectly do the job.

You may find your amp's specs here:
http://www.rega.co.uk/brio-2017.html#panel2

Input 2-5 (line) input sensitivity = 210mV at 47kΩ
Maximum input 2-5 (line) input level = 10.25V

You also may find some measurements here:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/rega-research-brio-integrated-amplifier-measurements

As you can see, the Amp distortion and noise is setting between 0.02% and 0.05%
With 112dB SINAD, the DAC THD+N is <0,00025%
That's around 1/100, so the DAC-induced degradation is meaningless.
 
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ZolaIII

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@pogballistics well its not a plain chart (unfortunately) anymore. It's more sofisticated data sheet now:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/
Keap in mind that RCA inputs to amp varies from let's say 86 to 110 bB THD + noise, SINAD is THD +noise +inter modular distribution. So input SINAD is less than given line in THD + noise value. By SINAD of 110 dB I mean absolutely transparent to what you can hear or you possibly ever could. Amplifier input sensitivity mV varies a lot but hire & usually we take DAC out line values of 2V unbalanced and 4V balanced. So that's the reference for line out.
 

Jimbob54

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If you only want a USB DAC , the various suggestions above are all very valid. All will work well with RoOn controlling playback, no need to spend more.

Roon is brilliant when used with a compatible streamer (including a DAC). I swear by my Cambridge Audio CXN V2 streamer/DAC which is fully Roon Ready . Or you could get a Roon compatible Raspberry Pi based streamer DAC. Means you can put significant space between the PC doing the legwork and the Hifi doing playback. Even different rooms.
 
OP
pogballistics

pogballistics

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The current Brio amp (since 2009 or so) is very well behaved generally and not designed specifically for very low distortion, instead spreading what it does have evenly over the harmonic spectrum and below audible limits I believe. It can be used with ANY decent modern dac and as said above in not so many words, dacs are commodities these days and can usually be safely chosen on facilities, price and visuals.

I'd suggest a Topping D10s or more versatile E30, could comfortably out-perform a Rega Dac these days (the Rega dac 'sounded' very nice to me, but maybe there's a touch of added 'warmth' to the tone - Stereophile measured the Rega dac so interested parties can take a look there and compare).

It would appear that dac's with a 'sound' to them, usually measure less in certain areas, but the good performing ones tend to 'sound' much the same if fairly compared and they reproduce differences in recordings, venues and so on with consummate ease.

Honestly, *these days* you don't need to spend more than the E30 with this amp and speakers, unless you want better visuals or maybe a 'story' to go with it. The amp's performance will swamp any distortion in the dac and I swear I'm not being critical here, as I love the current issue Brio and know it very well (the original 'clamshell cased' Brio from the 1990's was gutless and ran out of breath very quickly). An outgoing Topping D10 will NOT be out-classed by a Brio R I promise you!!!!!


P.S. There's a chap on facebook who wants a quite pricy 're-clocker' to go with his thirty year old second-tier (but dressed to be audiophile first tier) UK made dac. I mentioned the E30 as regards performance achievable these days and he wasn't having any of it! Audiophile (audiophool) mindsets are all but impossible to break, but some are seeing the light a little more these days, as thorough high resolution measurements just don't lie, unlike subjective opinions which are true to the person making them and very few others really...

Thank you for your detailed reply, DSJR.
The amp will arrive tomorrow and your reply has really filled me with enthusiasm.
I will pair it with my Q Acoustics 3050i as mentioned and will surely look at the Topping DACs which you have suggested.

Also, I have been looking at some Schiit DACs as well such as the Modi Multibit and Bitfrost 2. Any idea on these products. They use an in house DAC module and not ESS/AKM or BB.

They say that Rega are tuneful and fast amps but slightly on the leaner side of neutral. The Q Acoustics 3050i being floor standers would be slightly to the warm side (just assuming since haven't tried them yet). The Belden cable I will be using is neutral. Hence a balanced DAC will be a good combination to have in this chain.

What are your thoughts on this.

PS: I already have a beginner's DAC from Ifi audio (Zen Dac) which I can use for the timebeing before moving onto an upgrade. I want to upgrade in such a way that it complements my audio chain.
 

Rja4000

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Thank you for your detailed reply, DSJR.
The amp will arrive tomorrow and your reply has really filled me with enthusiasm.
I will pair it with my Q Acoustics 3050i as mentioned and will surely look at the Topping DACs which you have suggested.

Also, I have been looking at some Schiit DACs as well such as the Modi Multibit and Bitfrost 2. Any idea on these products. They use an in house DAC module and not ESS/AKM or BB.

They say that Rega are tuneful and fast amps but slightly on the leaner side of neutral. The Q Acoustics 3050i being floor standers would be slightly to the warm side (just assuming since haven't tried them yet). The Belden cable I will be using is neutral. Hence a balanced DAC will be a good combination to have in this chain.

What are your thoughts on this.

PS: I already have a beginner's DAC from Ifi audio (Zen Dac) which I can use for the timebeing before moving onto an upgrade. I want to upgrade in such a way that it complements my audio chain.
That's about what we try to achieve here:
The only way out of this kind of labyrinth is that every component is just (measurably) "clean" and transparent.
Otherwise its an endless puzzle.

That's why Amir started to measure speakers.

Transparent DACs and amps are easy to find nowadays and remain reasonably priced.
Speakers too, but little measurements existed.

Add a room Eq (below 200Hz), which is quite easy to do with REW and Roon, and the "chance" factor is going out of the equation.

Warmth, bass and other cooking ingredients to taste may still be added later (and with a control for each track, like we can do with bass/trebble) at will through DSP plugins in Roon.
 
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OP
pogballistics

pogballistics

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As the Brio is an integrated amp, you just need a good USB DAC with fixed volume.
I'd give this one a try.
Don't be fooled by the price: look at the measured performances!

You may spend the remaining money on a Roon lifetime license, as an example.

I really value this suggestion.
As the Rega Brio is an integrated amp which cannot be used as a Power amp, spending money on DACs with a preamp module is simply a wastage.

The Q Acoustics 3050i uses something called a Helmholtz Pressure Equalizer so I hope it is a transparent sounding one. Being a floor stander a bit of warmth is expected I guess.

Rega is perhaps a neutral sounding amp with no distortion and noise as some have suggested. This is great.

Now, the dac which I pair it up also needs to be clean with a good measurement. And also without an unwanted preamp module in it.

Hope what I have written is correct. Let me know if wrong.

Could you suggest me more such DACs which are without a preamp module and have given a good measurement.

Thanks,
 

ZolaIII

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I really value this suggestion.
As the Rega Brio is an integrated amp which cannot be used as a Power amp, spending money on DACs with a preamp module is simply a wastage.

The Q Acoustics 3050i uses something called a Helmholtz Pressure Equalizer so I hope it is a transparent sounding one. Being a floor stander a bit of warmth is expected I guess.

Rega is perhaps a neutral sounding amp with no distortion and noise as some have suggested. This is great.

Now, the dac which I pair it up also needs to be clean with a good measurement. And also without an unwanted preamp module in it.

Hope what I have written is correct. Let me know if wrong.

Could you suggest me more such DACs which are without a preamp module and have given a good measurement.

Thanks,
Every (literally) DAC is paird with an amplifier. Reference for line out is (should be) 2V unbalanced & 4V balanced. It really does not matter if its pure line out DAC or a DAC which can go over that true what's so ever analog line, its important that it isn't less than that. The rest is really up to your own taist and what you like.
 

Steve Dallas

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Thank you for your detailed reply, DSJR.
The amp will arrive tomorrow and your reply has really filled me with enthusiasm.
I will pair it with my Q Acoustics 3050i as mentioned and will surely look at the Topping DACs which you have suggested.

Also, I have been looking at some Schiit DACs as well such as the Modi Multibit and Bitfrost 2. Any idea on these products. They use an in house DAC module and not ESS/AKM or BB.

They say that Rega are tuneful and fast amps but slightly on the leaner side of neutral. The Q Acoustics 3050i being floor standers would be slightly to the warm side (just assuming since haven't tried them yet). The Belden cable I will be using is neutral. Hence a balanced DAC will be a good combination to have in this chain.

What are your thoughts on this.

PS: I already have a beginner's DAC from Ifi audio (Zen Dac) which I can use for the timebeing before moving onto an upgrade. I want to upgrade in such a way that it complements my audio chain.

Schiit DACs are improving in performance, but they are not all there yet. Their best measuring DAC is the standard Modi 3 as far as I know. I have one as part of my desktop headphone setup, and it is quite good for $100. (It sounds at least as good as anything I have had on my desktop.) It would perform admirably with your Brio amp.

If you peruse this link, you will find many good DACs for your purpose. You don't need to spend more than about $200 for obtain an excellent DAC for your purpose. Any DAC with a SINAD of about 105 or above on the USB input will sound great. Otherwise, select based on features and other elements of the reviews.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/
 

Eetu

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A Surfer

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@ the OP, cables do not have characteristics so your cables are not neutral. Sorry, that is the kind of silliness that this community is all about unmasking and exposing to scrutiny. Cables do not sound different in the way audiophiles like to think they do. Cable hype is all subjective hyperbole.
 
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