Nectar Hive Review (Electrostatic Headphones)

[Cars-N-Cans]

I can't imagine ever wanting to listen to headphones above 90dB, let alone 100dB, but still, what a mess.

It’s the peaks that will cause issues. For yucks I took measurements while listening to my floor speakers with a cal’d mic and at an average of 85dBA there were 105-108 dB peaks at times at lower frequencies, so you could possibly push them beyond their limits even in relatively normal listening.

 

[dlaloum]

It’s the peaks that will cause issues. For yucks I took measurements while listening to my floor speakers with a cal’d mic and at an average of 85dBA there were 105-108 dB peaks at times at lower frequencies, so you could possibly push them beyond their limits even in relatively normal listening.

Your average listening level is important in that calculation! - with an average of 85db - peaks of 105 to 108db is pushing things.

If you listen at 75db average - the peaks are only at 95db to 98db - which is much more viable...

So they may not be the headphones for everyone... (but then what headphones are!?)

 

[Dial]

I had a 1990s Stax hooked up to a Quad 306 which destroyed the adapter box. The headphone being intact, I gave it to a repairer who was a fan of the brand. It produced no BASS at all.

 

[dlaloum]

I had a 1990s Stax hooked up to a Quad 306 which destroyed the adapter box. The headphone being intact, I gave it to a repairer who was a fan of the brand. It produced no BASS at all.

Ouch, how did that happen? I have the same adapter box.... so far no issues...

 

[Vict0r]

Sad! I was hoping this was going to be the be-all-end-all. I read some glowing reviews and customer comments, and my expectations were sky high.

Thanks for the review, Amir!

 

[MrSoul4470]

I think people should correct their listening habits (loudness overall and expected bass level) and then any Stax headphone (haven't listened to other electrostats) will be the perfect choice.

I will never understand people saying that electrostats like Stax cannot play loud enough. Well, if you plan to ruin your hearing within hours of listening then maybe not. For reasonable headphone listeners it gets more than loud enough. I get my Stax never even close to it's limits and no dynamic nor magnetostatic headphone can ever give me a similar experience.

I think Amir should really not be considered a "standard listener". From all we know he listens deafeningly loud and therefore probably has lost quite a lot of his hearing (due to his age too). So he's for sure not a role model in that regard.

 

[Miiksuli]

Just what I thought. It's a bright headphone but overall smooth. This is the reason I went tuning this headphone to my liking to make it more neutral. But those distortion measurements were interesting and shockingly good even at the lower region. I don't have a dynamic problem because I use a stereo tube amp to fire this baby. I can play almost any level without destroying my ears.

I was talking a couple weeks ago with the maker of this headphone. He wasn't partically was not interested in my modifications and I don't know why. It got so much smoother and more relaxed at high frequencies.

I think it's not that bad for estat but when tuned to harman neutral it's very good headphone.

 

[nectarsoundnet]

Hi, I thought I'd chime in because the measurements don't really match the feedback I get from most of my customers, and the amplifier used is an SRM 313... I'd be interested to see the measurements done with a proper amplifier and at normal listening levels. For example, here is a measurement of the amplifier output of an SRM1MK2, at high levels, at high frequencies with a Stax SR407 headphone (I don't have a SRM313 but SRM1/MK2 is a similar vintage amp). You can see at even 10kHz its waveform goes triangle. I won't get into it all here, but an estat is a capacitive load, it's impedance is purely capacitive, therefore impedance is 1/2pi*fC, and most of those vintage Stax amps use resistor sources to drive the output (usually 50k ohms), and at high frequencies it can't keep up with the slew needed for a capacitive load. That's why you have Stax mafia and the kgsshv and all of those amps that use actual current sources that are operating with 10mA or higher per leg. This is how they avoid this. And if you're using an amp like this the highs will sound harsh at high listening levels, with any electrostatic headphone since they all have roughly the same capacitance of less than 200pF. My HPs sensitivity may be a bit lower, so only difference is you may hit that "cliff" sooner with a bad amplifier (106dBspl???). SRM1MK2 is not the same as the SRM313 but I'd be interested to see the limitations of this amp... And in general I think that if ASR is measuring electrostatic headphones, then there needs to be a standard amp used across the board so you're comparing apples to apples. Finally, not sure if Amir knows about the sticking my HPs can experience which my customers know about, so please make sure they aren't stuck if you applied sudden pressure to them while putting them ON or something like that, if it happens you just need to unplug them and discharge it. This may be why you had the bass distortion? Unless you EQ'd them and then had to raise the level so high that the amplifier is clipping or something... Anyway, I appreciate what you guys do. Thanks.

 

[Vict0r]

Anyway, I appreciate what you guys do. Thanks.

This is how you'd want a manufacturer to reply to a less than ideal review. Good sport! I'm curious to see if the amplifier will make a difference.

 

[Miiksuli]

@nectarsoundnet Keep up the good work. Any future plans that you want to shimmer us?

 

[JaMaSt]

You might have noticed that I am missing the 114 dBSPL in the above graph. The combination of headphone and amplifier could not go above 106 dBSPL. Anything above that produced horrid distortion that was off the charts. So there is a massive cliff here.

How can anyone perceive any nuances of music at 106 dbSPL?

 

[Robbo99999]

Hi, I thought I'd chime in because the measurements don't really match the feedback I get from most of my customers, and the amplifier used is an SRM 313... I'd be interested to see the measurements done with a proper amplifier and at normal listening levels. For example, here is a measurement of the amplifier output of an SRM1MK2, at high levels, at high frequencies with a Stax SR407 headphone (I don't have a SRM313 but SRM1/MK2 is a similar vintage amp). You can see at even 10kHz its waveform goes triangle. I won't get into it all here, but an estat is a capacitive load, it's impedance is purely capacitive, therefore impedance is 1/2pi*fC, and most of those vintage Stax amps use resistor sources to drive the output (usually 50k ohms), and at high frequencies it can't keep up with the slew needed for a capacitive load. That's why you have Stax mafia and the kgsshv and all of those amps that use actual current sources that are operating with 10mA or higher per leg. This is how they avoid this. And if you're using an amp like this the highs will sound harsh at high listening levels, with any electrostatic headphone since they all have roughly the same capacitance of less than 200pF. My HPs sensitivity may be a bit lower, so only difference is you may hit that "cliff" sooner with a bad amplifier (106dBspl???). SRM1MK2 is not the same as the SRM313 but I'd be interested to see the limitations of this amp... And in general I think that if ASR is measuring electrostatic headphones, then there needs to be a standard amp used across the board so you're comparing apples to apples. Finally, not sure if Amir knows about the sticking my HPs can experience which my customers know about, so please make sure they aren't stuck if you applied sudden pressure to them while putting them ON or something like that, if it happens you just need to unplug them and discharge it. This may be why you had the bass distortion? Unless you EQ'd them and then had to raise the level so high that the amplifier is clipping or something... Anyway, I appreciate what you guys do. Thanks.

View attachment 213923

Good point about using an amp that is good enough for all electrostats in the testing....if one does exist. Should really remove the amp as a variable if you can. (But if the amp has to be optimally matched to that particular electrostat, then this would be an issue......don't know enough about electrostats)

 

[Leporello]

I think people should correct their listening habits (loudness overall and expected bass level) and then any Stax headphone (haven't listened to other electrostats) will be the perfect choice.

I will never understand people saying that electrostats like Stax cannot play loud enough. Well, if you plan to ruin your hearing within hours of listening then maybe not. For reasonable headphone listeners it gets more than loud enough. I get my Stax never even close to it's limits and no dynamic nor electrostatic headphone can ever give me a similar experience.

I think Amir should really not be considered a "standard listener". From all we know he listens deafeningly loud and therefore probably has lost quite a lot of his hearing (due to his age too). So he's for sure not a role model in that regard.

Problem with my Lambda Sr303 is not loudness but peaking / resonance between 1 and 2 kHz. It makes the sound often shouty and telephone-like.

 

[nectarsoundnet]

View attachment 213923

Good point about using an amp that is good enough for all electrostats in the testing....if one does exist. Should really remove the amp as a variable if you can. (But if the amp has to be optimally matched to that particular electrostat, then this would be an issue......don't know enough about electrostats)

What people don't get is that estats DO require some current at high frequencies. I've had customers use my HP's with all kinds of amps honestly with no issues. But for a measurement of a headphone, using a very expesnive GRAS rig, but then using a 50 year old $300 amp is just not right, and is more of an evaluation of the amp than anything else. To explain, the MFG's only provide the distortion levels at 1kHz, and even Amir's old thread about comparing two estat amps (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...be-amplifier-distortion-vs-solid-state.18832/) only measures it at 1kHz! This is not scientific with respect to estat amps... The 1/2piFC impedance for 200pF headphone load (as an example) is 795kOhms load at 1kHz, and a 39kOhm load at 20kHz.... ! Other comments on that post indicate to me that this fact is not really understood by the person measuring. This impedance at 1kHz vs 10kHz or 20kHz is a huge difference especially when driving something at 1000Vpp!. A 400V peak into 40k load is 10mA per leg! Mulitply that by 4 channels, and double that current to properly bias the FETs! Driving an electrostatic capacitive load is nothing like what most people are used to (driving a dynamic driver inductive load at low voltages!). Evaluating an estat amp at 1kHz only is absolutely not correct. I've measured an SRM252S that had virtually no output at 14kHz and outputting virtually a triangle wave... (using a STAX headphone).. Do the measurements properly at the right frequencies. Use an audio analyzer, and a scope.

 

[MrSoul4470]

I'm using the SR-202 which was the smallest if their models and probably the best allrounder. I've owned it for more than 20 years and they're still the best headphones I've ever listened to. They sound incredible without EQing and even better with. I never thought they sounded bright but full and mellow, detailed and extremely natural. Anything I've listened to from Sennheiser, Hifiman and so on was just on a completely different (lower) level to me. But probably people just have different expectations. I don't need 106 dB and probably not even 100 dB. Pure loudness doesn't make things sound better.

 

[Miiksuli]

@nectarsoundnet I agree. I was using SRM-313 first then I moved to PP KT88 >50W amp and it made quite a big difference. I use it with Ifi Audio Pro iESL. But I dropped the bias from 600-620V to 500V. It did get fatiguing to my ears when listening to higher volumes. Pro iESL can do even 640V.

 

[Dro]

I have a hard time knocking this headphone. It seems to have been developed by a single person and for that I am impressed by its performance. Yeah the frequency response has some quirks, but I could probably still EQ the 20-8k range quite nicely with my ADI-2 DAC and the distortion looks like it would response really well to that.

Maxing out at 106 dB SPL would not be an issue at all for me. I listen around 85 dBA and doubt my music would give me peaks significantly over 100 dB SPL. And this is not a "compression" type situation where you get crazy distortion as it gets louder, so all that 106 dB SPL is "usable".

The asking price seems quite good for for what it is. I think many boutique headphones are a much worse value proposition. I'm hoping we will see more products with a more refined frequency response in the future.

 

[nectarsoundnet]

I have a hard time knocking this headphone. It seems to have been developed by a single person and for that I am impressed by its performance. Yeah the frequency response has some quirks, but I could probably still EQ the 20-8k range quite nicely with my ADI-2 DAC and the distortion looks like it would response really well to that.

Maxing out at 106 dB SPL would not be an issue at all for me. I listen around 85 dBA and doubt my music would give me peaks significantly over 100 dB SPL. And this is not a "compression" type situation where you get crazy distortion as it gets louder, so all that 106 dB SPL is "usable".

The asking price seems quite for for what it is. I think many boutique headphones are a much worse value proposition. I'm hoping we will see more products with a more refined frequency response in the future.

I don't even know where the 106dB came from. From a customer "I've had the Hive's up at 110dB without issue, even measured them like that with full harman EQ" so I don't know what was done here honestly. Also Amir in another post measured the same amp and it clipped at 114dB with another HP, so if mine is 6dB less sensitive (108dB) plus he's doing 2dB of leveling / EQ / filtering, then his amp is clipping, not the HP.

 

[_thelaughingman]

Based on the measurements to the IEF target, the graph matches similarly to the Harman curve above 2k for response. These are fairly flat and tad bit below the intended curve, but EQ'ing these would bring out the balance and tonality. Should definitely be good pair to listen to with a good amp for electrostats.

 

[Robbo99999]

View attachment 213923

What people don't get is that estats DO require some current at high frequencies. I've had customers use my HP's with all kinds of amps honestly with no issues. But for a measurement of a headphone, using a very expesnive GRAS rig, but then using a 50 year old $300 amp is just not right, and is more of an evaluation of the amp than anything else. To explain, the MFG's only provide the distortion levels at 1kHz, and even Amir's old thread about comparing two estat amps (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...be-amplifier-distortion-vs-solid-state.18832/) only measures it at 1kHz! This is not scientific with respect to estat amps... The 1/2piFC impedance for 200pF headphone load (as an example) is 795kOhms load at 1kHz, and a 39kOhm load at 20kHz.... ! Other comments on that post indicate to me that this fact is not really understood by the person measuring. This impedance at 1kHz vs 10kHz or 20kHz is a huge difference especially when driving something at 1000Vpp!. A 400V peak into 40k load is 10mA per leg! Mulitply that by 4 channels, and double that current to properly bias the FETs! Driving an electrostatic capacitive load is nothing like what most people are used to (driving a dynamic driver inductive load at low voltages!). Evaluating an estat amp at 1kHz only is absolutely not correct. I've measured an SRM252S that had virtually no output at 14kHz and outputting virtually a triangle wave... (using a STAX headphone).. Do the measurements properly at the right frequencies. Use an audio analyzer, and a scope.

Is it possible you can buy one amp that will satisfactorily drive all electrostats? Which one would you get for that purpose? (maybe Amir would do better to see if he can get his hands on one for any future electrostat reviews)