Nectar Hive Review (Electrostatic Headphones)

[nectarsoundnet]

IMO: if I were to buy this HP, I would be pissed to find out after the fact that it only “works” with some specific estats amps, but not others designed for Stax estats (the de facto standard).

I think you and Amir missed the part where the distortion that the amplifier shows is with a STAX headphone SR407 and STAX amplifier SRM1/MK2. So that's my point, it's not just my headphones... Even STAX (the de facto standard) has the same issue. That's why there is such a huge DIY community in electrostatics. But I think it's great that everyone is trying to learn more about this technology and that's part of the great thing about the HiveX, it's an affordable inroads for electrostatics at a similar performance or better.

 

[CedarX]

I think you and Amir missed the part where the distortion that the amplifier shows is with a STAX headphone SR407 and STAX amplifier SRM1/MK2. So that's my point, it's not just my headphones... Even STAX (the de facto standard) has the same issue. That's why there is such a huge DIY community in electrostatics. But I think it's great that everyone is trying to learn more about this technology and that's part of the great thing about the HiveX, it's an affordable inroads for electrostatics at a similar performance or better.

Kudos for your willingness to give more insights about estats: it's all about fun and learning!
That being said, I am even more confused now: Amir's measurements reveal some worrying issues with the Hive (or is it HiveX?)... he confirmed the issues with subjective listening... and it does not appear to be "fixable" through EQ. If the headphone doesn't need to be paired with any specific amps any more than any other electrostatic headphone (not my words), what's wrong then? If the costly KGSSHV gives much better performance (again not my words), does it also mean that some other amp. are gonna give lower or even bad performance? Is the SRM-313 a bad amp. for the Hive and if yes, why?
IMO, the fact that no customer complains about the Hive is of limited value at ASR. I would follow Amir's advice and pass... but I'll continue to read and learn!

 

[nectarsoundnet]

Honestly man, I don't know. Every time I explain what is probably happening in great detail, I get "well he's not talking about that, he's talking about the frequency response, it's horrible" so not sure what else I can say. If there was something "wrong" and not "fixable" wouldn't you think I would have horrible reviews? 100% returns? Maybe we can try this, Dan Clark let Amir borrow a Stealth right?, maybe Dan can let him borrow his electrostatic Voce for measure? And then Amir can listen to and measure them with the SRM313? So that we have a fair, apples to apples comparison for a $3k headphone and a $649 electrostatic headphone, same exact amp! I think Dan wouldn't mind at all, and it would settle things, and we'd finally have two properly measured Electrostatic headphones on this forum.

 

[amirm]

Honestly man, I don't know. Every time I explain what is probably happening in great detail, I get "well he's not talking about that, he's talking about the frequency response, it's horrible" so not sure what else I can say.

Maybe we are having communication problems. I measured your headphone and see these resonances/errors in frequency response:

You have talked a lot about amplifier distortion and me paying attention to 1 kHz only. Above measurement is at 94 dBSPL. Here is the full frequency distortion plot:

So distortion is absolutely not a problem. The resonances are cyclical in nature which points to an issue with the driver. Is there an explanation for this? This is the main reason for my lackluster conclusion. As I noted, the dynamics limit is something I also see with Stax headphones so I am not worried about that per se.

 

[Robbo99999]

Honestly man, I don't know. Every time I explain what is probably happening in great detail, I get "well he's not talking about that, he's talking about the frequency response, it's horrible" so not sure what else I can say. If there was something "wrong" and not "fixable" wouldn't you think I would have horrible reviews? 100% returns? Maybe we can try this, Dan Clark let Amir borrow a Stealth right?, maybe Dan can let him borrow his electrostatic Voce for measure? And then Amir can listen to and measure them with the SRM313? So that we have a fair, apples to apples comparison for a $3k headphone and a $649 electrostatic headphone, same exact amp! I think Dan wouldn't mind at all, and it would settle things, and we'd finally have two properly measured Electrostatic headphones on this forum.

Hmm, surely you want your headphone measured with an amp that does it justice.....that's what you were proving before, that a better amp was required, wouldn't it be better to try to take that tack? (better to keep it simple in my view) Maybe you can speak with Amir to see if you guys can agree on an amp and see if you can agree a re-measurement & re-listen.

 

[amirm]

I really do think, and especially for a headphone that has been developed by one person or a small company, that we should respect their hard work & emotional/physical/monetary investment in such a project by making sure we're using the right amp so as to not misportray the headphone.

As noted, there is no requirement listed on the website. Stax Pro level DC bias is all that is required and my Stax amplifier qualifies as a result. As to a single person being behind a product, unfortunately I can't disadvantage larger companies that way. Once you get in the market and decide to compete with larger companies, then the same testing protocol needs to apply. I can't grade on a "curve" as we say in college.

As for re-testing, I will only do that if it can be shown it fixes anything. I have yet to see any evidence of that. The situation is actually the opposite where I showed stellar/super low distortion. What else would another amp do? Fix the frequency response error? If so, why?

 

[nectarsoundnet]

What output voltage were you measuring that HP distortion at, or at what dBSPL, was it 106dBSPL (you just mention that it clips there, but nothing about what dBSPL it was measured at)

Here's a your plot showing the amp clipping at 1kHz at 114dBSPL.

I would encourage you to really measure the voltage distortion at high frequencies though, with an audio analzyer or scope, at high votlage, to rule that out.

For the frequency response, a lot of estats tend to do that at high frequencies, they are all roughly the same type of design, an incredibly thin mylar, and open back. You can pad roll too try and it does change that response in the highs. I also chose to keep my design very open for transparency. They sound great to me and most people, so I don't want to change anything about it honestly. If I tried to add padding to reduce resonances, it will sound muffled (mylar is super thin and the electrostatic force is weak) therefore it would loose a lot of SPEED that estats are known for. Again you probably look at that and think that's not objective enough for you and that's fine. Finally for those that don't understand the world of estats, the biggest complaint with them is that they do not have a lot of bass, which is what my main goal is with mine and why people like them.... Now I know you guys don't care about the "tech", and just the F response against the Harman target, but just explaining so you know where I, and many others are coming from. Finally, Kevin Gilmore didn't design a bunch of electrostatic amps for the Hive, it was for STAX.. so please understand there is this aspect to the community about the importance of amplifiers.

Please I'd like to see more electrostatics on here so at least I have something to benchmark against. Measure the Perun, R1 Conquest, Voce, SR009 and others.

 

[Robbo99999]

As noted, there is no requirement listed on the website. Stax Pro level DC bias is all that is required and my Stax amplifier qualifies as a result. As to a single person being behind a product, unfortunately I can't disadvantage larger companies that way. Once you get in the market and decide to compete with larger companies, then the same testing protocol needs to apply. I can't grade on a "curve" as we say in college.

As for re-testing, I will only do that if it can be shown it fixes anything. I have yet to see any evidence of that. The situation is actually the opposite where I showed stellar/super low distortion. What else would another amp do? Fix the frequency response error? If so, why?

Fair enough. It seems from your distortion measurements that if you stayed below 104dB at all times during your listening tests that a different amp wouldn't have an advantage, but do you know you definitely stayed below that level during your listening tests? I'm sure @nectarsoundnet can discuss this better with you given that he's the designer of the product, but I thought I'd throw out that question into the general mix.

 

[amirm]

What output voltage were you measuring that HP distortion at, or at what dBSPL, was it 106dBSPL (you just mention that it clips there, but nothing about what dBSPL it was measured at)

Voltage? What voltage? I am showing you acoustic levels. This is not a passive headphone to show you voltages and such.

I would encourage you to really measure the voltage distortion at high frequencies though to rule that out.

It is already ruled out when the sum of the headphone+ amp has this kind of distortion:

The resonance peaks also create narrowband distortion rise which is what we expect to see (as an issue with the driver). But they are not the cause for the frequency response error because their levels is 70 dB below the signal itself.

 

[_thelaughingman]

Maybe we are having communication problems. I measured your headphone and see these resonances/errors in frequency response:

You have talked a lot about amplifier distortion and me paying attention to 1 kHz only. Above measurement is at 94 dBSPL. Here is the full frequency distortion plot:



So distortion is absolutely not a problem. The resonances are cyclical in nature which points to an issue with the driver. Is there an explanation for this? This is the main reason for my lackluster conclusion. As I noted, the dynamics limit is something I also see with Stax headphones so I am not worried about that per se.

There is a correlation of frequency response above 1khz showing resonances even with Crinacle's measurements. I think @amirm is questioning the response and resonances he observed in his measurements more so than the performance of the headphone in measurements.

 

[nectarsoundnet]

View attachment 214147
There is a correlation of frequency response above 1khz showing resonances even with Crinacle's measurements. I think @amirm is questioning the response and resonances he observed in his measurements more so than the performance of the headphone in measurements.

Right - the Frequency response is the frequency response, I will not argue with that. If you don't like it, or if you think that that F response objectively, scientifically, is complete shit, then I can't change that and it is a valid observation. It's just the subjective listening, and adjectives used were just very surprising to me, and he links them directly to those resonances in the F response... Just very surprising and doesn't match what I've ever heard by myself or others or the customer that sent these in, but that's also not going to convince anyone. Amir isn't concerned with the amp performance, and I'm not going to argue that anymore. So I think I get it and what this community is about. It just sucks that a headphone that no one has listened to on here gets 70 votes for terrible or poor. Just getting used to it guys.

 

[_thelaughingman]

Right - the Frequency response is the frequency response, I will not argue with that. If you don't like it, or if you think that that F response objectively, scientifically, is complete shit, then I can't change that and it is a valid observation. It's just the subjective listening, and adjectives used were just very surprising to me, and he links them directly to those resonances in the F response... Just very surprising and doesn't match what I've ever heard by myself or others or the customer that sent these in, but that's also not going to convince anyone. Amir isn't concerned with the amp performance, and I'm not going to argue that anymore. So I think I get it and what this community is about. It just sucks that a headphone that no one has listened to on here gets 70 votes for terrible or poor. Just getting used to it guys.

Hold on, I, for one, am not judging your product as being poor. I am just showing a correlation of FR between two measurements. I will applaud you for designing your headphones and making them accessible to the public. Most of us here would love to support your product and sing its praises, based on our need for an estat headphone. Think of this as product feedback for any future designs and improvements you can come up with other products. ASR is a very objective and data driven community that’s rooted in scientific theory, but I don’t kick people down because a product doesn’t perform according to expectations. Not everything in this world is perfect, and that imperfection is what makes each one of unique. And that applies to your headphones too. Be proud of your achievement and success.

 

[Robbo99999]

Right - the Frequency response is the frequency response, I will not argue with that. If you don't like it, or if you think that that F response objectively, scientifically, is complete shit, then I can't change that and it is a valid observation. It's just the subjective listening, and adjectives used were just very surprising to me, and he links them directly to those resonances in the F response... Just very surprising and doesn't match what I've ever heard by myself or others or the customer that sent these in, but that's also not going to convince anyone. Amir isn't concerned with the amp performance, and I'm not going to argue that anymore. So I think I get it and what this community is about. It just sucks that a headphone that no one has listened to on here gets 70 votes for terrible or poor. Just getting used to it guys.

The amp point is valid though, if it's true! But from Amir's distortion measurements as long as he kept his headphone at 104dB or below then it would have zero distortion issues - but I don't know whether he did that in the listening test or not. If part of his listening test involved going over 104dB then I think you could argue the case for trying a different/better amp. He's not answered that question yet though.

They are some sharp peaks in the treble, so that was always gonna mark it down in the voting, but I'm just wondering if a better amp would have improved the listening test re my 104dB point in the previous paragraph which would pull the headphone up the rankings in the voting.

 

[shrimp_dude]

I've always found it really strange to have a voting system for gear (source/amp/headphones/speakers/etc) that basically nobody reading the article has heard or used.

I have the HiveX and will say I prefer it to the Hifiman HE6SE v1 (which has a glowing review here). It sounded a bit harsh on a low powered amplifier but with a "proper" (aka way too expensive) stax amplifier, the HiveX sounds excellent throughout the freq range and I don't hear any harshness or issues.

Just my 2 cents. Hassle to get electrostats set up (especially in cost) but the HiveX are some of the better sounding headphones I've heard up to the $2k range.

 

[Doodski]

I've always found it really strange to have a voting system for gear (source/amp/headphones/speakers/etc) that basically nobody reading the article has heard or used.

Many of the peeps here @ ASR are experienced technical people with certificates, diplomas and degrees and even doctorates. So we see the test results and have a very good idea of what the product is about. No listening test is required especially when we have a database of really good headphones, amps, speakers, DACs etc etc to reference from.

 

[shrimp_dude]

Many of the peeps here @ ASR are experienced technical people with certificates, diplomas and degrees and even doctorates. So we see the test results and have a very good idea of what the product is about. No listening test is required especially when we have a database of really good headphones, amps, speakers, DACs etc etc to reference from.

That's good and all, but what does it even mean to 'rate' a headphone based on seeing someone's review? I'm not saying people are choosing the "wrong" rating, I just find it odd to have a rating system at all. You might as well rate a car you've never driven based on the someone's review and its specs like weight and horsepower.

 

[Doodski]

That's good and all, but what does it even mean to 'rate' a headphone based on seeing someone's review? I'm not saying people are choosing the "wrong" rating, I just find it odd to have a rating system at all. You might as well rate a car you've never driven based on the someone's review and its specs like weight and horsepower.

We are not testing cars. The car analogy does not work in this case. Frequency response is a primary indicator of the sound these will produce. The other tests are required too but in this specific case the frequency response is all over the place from ~1kHz and up. EQ/PEQ can fix many issues with frequency response although with resonances I don't think a EQ/PEQ is the solution.

 

[dlaloum]

The low distortion demonstrates a strength, the resonance peaks demonstrates a weakness.... Like many (all) components - this pair of headphones is a mix of both.

Ultimately the question for the individual is which aspect do you consider more important?

I always found the low distortion and the clarity of the microdynamic detail achieved through estats to trump many other aspects - definitely more important than having lots of Bass....

But I would love to see further analysis of what is causing those resonances (assuming that is what those peaks are...) - and whether they are in fact an inherent flaw "the nature of the beast" or whether they are something that can be overcome in various ways (tensioning of the mylar? evenness?)

 

[restorer-john]

Right - the Frequency response is the frequency response, I will not argue with that. If you don't like it, or if you think that that F response objectively, scientifically, is complete shit, then I can't change that and it is a valid observation. It's just the subjective listening, and adjectives used were just very surprising to me, and he links them directly to those resonances in the F response... Just very surprising and doesn't match what I've ever heard by myself or others or the customer that sent these in, but that's also not going to convince anyone. Amir isn't concerned with the amp performance, and I'm not going to argue that anymore. So I think I get it and what this community is about. It just sucks that a headphone that no one has listened to on here gets 70 votes for terrible or poor. Just getting used to it guys.

Don't take any notice of the voting system. It's hardly scientific.

 

[Doodski]

But I would love to see further analysis of what is causing those resonances (assuming that is what those peaks are...) - and whether they are in fact an inherent flaw "the nature of the beast" or whether they are something that can be overcome in various ways (tensioning of the mylar? evenness?)

That's for the maker of the headphones to determine. ASR does not assess these sort of things.