This is probably a tweeter without a waveguide (or not large enough waveguide in the relation to the baffle width), that's why we see a polar response widening around 3 kHz.
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ND25FW-4 , tweeter. What are + and -? Red-black?
- Thread starter DanielT
- Start date
OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
That's right. It was a general example with tweeter without WG.
For myself, I listen to music in two different ways. Either in a fixed listening position or I move around in the listening room and in other rooms (cleaning, cooking, fixing various things). In the case of a fixed listening position, it is the on-axis response that must be good. In the second case, I could have omni speakers and or some home cinema system, with lots of speakers scattered in the listening room. Maybe then even speakers in the whole apartment, if it weren't for the fact that I don't want to set up speakers everywhere and run lots of cables.
A much cheaper and simpler solution if you want to listen to music and move around at the same time are of course headphones. When I do that I use a pair of Soundcore Anker Life Q30 Bluetooth headphones and it works fine.
It's also a tip if you're looking for a pair of ok Bluetooth headphones at a good price that have a long battery life, and by that I mean a LONG battery life, then I can recommend the Soundcore Anker Life Q30.
They cost $80:
Anker Soundcore Life Q30 Review - Great, But Only After EQ
Anker Soundcore Life Q30 are worth checking out for natural sound and excellent battery life. For under $100, you can't get anything better.
headphonesaddict.com
badspeakerdesigner
Active Member
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You could just make a speaker with wide dispersion that is even and they'll sound good on an off axis. I can say the nd25fw offset on a ~14" baffle with no round overs didn't sound good on or off axis.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #24
Speaking of baffles. Probably the one with the most measured drivers is the IEC baffel. No round baffle corners on such a test baffle:
www.jensentone.com
I just took a tweeter at random and then it looks like this measured with an IEC baffle:
sbacoustics.com
I'm including this for those wondering what IEC 268-5 is in SB's measurement:
www.visaton.de
What is a Frequency Response Chart? | Jensen Loudspeakers
I just took a tweeter at random and then it looks like this measured with an IEC baffle:
SB19ST-C000-4 / Fabric - Sbacoustics
Optimized damping in pole cavity to eliminate internal reflection, fine weave soft fabric dome for smooth frequency response.
sbacoustics.com
I'm including this for those wondering what IEC 268-5 is in SB's measurement:
Frequency response (IEC 268-5) | Visaton
badspeakerdesigner
Active Member
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Yes IEC baffles generally look quite clean because they are so large you don't really get diffraction.
heissmann-acoustics.de
Basic article | Baffle geometry
About baffle design, edge diffraction, secondary sound sources and their influence on the reproduction quality of loudspeakers.
heissmann-acoustics.de
Martinvb
Active Member
So what happened to the small Goodmans? I came across two of those little gems a few weeks ago in a local thrift shop. Unfortunately, the had been handled badly, as filters were bad and the tweeters burned out. After repairing the tweeters and swapping out filters they sounded unexpectedly pleasant for the small size they have. Will never let them go, unless I can make somebody with a small living space very happy with these M100’s.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #27
I gave them to a friend. If one of them hadn't been missing an original tweeter, I probably would have kept them.So what happened to the small Goodmans? I came across two of those little gems a few weeks ago in a local thrift shop. Unfortunately, the had been handled badly, as filters were bad and the tweeters burned out. After repairing the tweeters and swapping out filters they sounded unexpectedly pleasant for the small size they have. Will never let them go, unless I can make somebody with a small living space very happy with these M100’s.
Glad you're happy with them after you fixed them.
Hi @DanielT
Are you still happy with your Dayton ND25FW-4 tweeter?
I am contemplating on a 3-way project and I just bumped into this tweeter and your measurements look excellent!
I was looking at various SB, Peerless, etc. tweeters but looking at the measurements the Dayton seems to be a real giant killer
Cheers
Are you still happy with your Dayton ND25FW-4 tweeter?
I am contemplating on a 3-way project and I just bumped into this tweeter and your measurements look excellent!
I was looking at various SB, Peerless, etc. tweeters but looking at the measurements the Dayton seems to be a real giant killer
Cheers
I'm not the person you asked, but I've used that tweeter pretty extensively and it's honestly a gem, better than most tweeters. Easily beats any flat faceplate tweeter I've heard. The FS is a little high but that doesn't really matter much when ideally it should be used from 2.5k and up as that's around where the waveguide on it stops controlling the wave. I have a hard time recommending other tweeters because these things are so good and so inexpensive.
I used it for awhile in a bookshelf that had very large round overs for one of the best dispersion patterns I've gotten in a speaker.
Thank you @Ktacos for sharing, appreciated
This looks incredibly great indeed!
Can you comment on it subjectively too? I was reading some negative reviews both on Parts Express and Audiophonics that it lacks details and air - but of course these shall be taken with a pinch of salt (or two)....
They don't really lack anything, if you filter them right they're just a good neutral tweeter. The cnote kit for instance sounds awfully close to the KH80/Genelec 8030c. Since the tweeter has good DI control, it responds to EQ well. The graph I posted above has a downward slope via some EQ, and a roll off in the top end which is just my preference. It's a tweeter that kind of makes you wonder why so many tweeters cost so much when they exhibit worse performance. The distortion is also very good on the tweeter.
I wrote/mixed this song on some two way speakers with the ND25FW.
I wrote/mixed this song on some two way speakers with the ND25FW.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #33
I'm still happy.
I think the ND25FW-4 tweeter sounds good anyway. Really nice.
I've popped it in a couple of old Qln One boxes, together with the original bass driver.Crossover point 2.5 kHz, Fourth-order Linkwitz–Riley crossovers (active crossover). Bass and tweeter powered by separate amplifier.
This is what the original Qln One looks like:
Mine, with a dormant project that I will start up again this summer, which I rounded the baffle corners on and painted white. Now I just put in the tweeter, without screwing it in, so you can see what it looks like:
(after the final painting they will be flush mounted)
I'm going to install my SB15NBAC30-4 woofers in the boxes later this summer.
Amir's test of the C Note speakers with ND25FW-4 shows that you shouldn't set the crossover point too low. But the distortion may be due to the woofer :
Instead we see the rising distortion at crossover point which could either be the woofer going too high, or tweeter going too low.
Parts Express DIY C-Note Speaker Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Parts Express C-Note DIY Kit. It was kindly purchased, put together and shipped to me by member @Winkleswizard. A pair of these with everything you need including the cabinet "flat pack" costs just US $100. And that includes free shipping if...
audiosciencereview.com
Have you seen this thread, where the ND25FW-4 is used?:
Introducing Denotiva DIY speakers!
Well was planning to wait until a later date to announce this, but the budget Directiva project required that I exchange the Seas DXT tweeter and so it seemed the time had arrived. To date all Directiva speakers have used the DXT tweeter but as I worked on a budget version I realized that the...
audiosciencereview.com
Edit:
I missed:
In #10 of this thread I have already mentioned Amir's test of the C-Note speakers.
In #11 of this thread you see the tweeters mounted together with the original bass drivers in Qln One.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #34
What are your plans for this three-way speaker?
Do you have a mid and bass driver for it?It will be a fun project, using really cheap drivers and 3D printed cabinetsWhat are your plans for this three-way speaker?
I will dedicate a separate thread for it later on but currently the plan is:
- Tweeter: Dayton Audio ND25FW-4 (crossed at 2500-3000Hz)
- Mid: SB12MNRX2-25-4 (crossed at 300Hz)
- Midwoofer: SB17NRX2C35-4 (crossed at 80Hz to my subs)
(all linear phase crossover using my PC with Jriver and various VST plugins)
But first I will be posting about my 3D printed sphere speakers using the Sica 5,5 C 1,5 CP coax drivers
(hopefully in a few weeks' time)
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I'm inclined to believe it is largely from the woofer.
Here's a sweep I did on a 3 way that had the ND25FW in it, now keep in mind this isn't calibrated SPL so the SPL numbers aren't accurate but this was at a very, very loud level. Far louder than anyone could really tolerate in the 20'x25' the speakers were in.
Forgot to mention the tweeter had a 2nd order filter at 2.5khz.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #37
I got a couple of old empty transmission line speakers* boxes for free (no one wanted to buy them so the seller gave them away, thanks for that)
I have a couple of low power 8 inch vintage bass drivers, with pitiful small magnets, probably pretty high Fs and so on that were suitable to mount directly in the TL boxes. Tweeter, the subject of this thread, ND25FW-4 I mounted in them. They also fit directly in the TL boxes.
I use an active crossover for this test. Crossover point set to 2.6 kHz (24 db L-R filter). It fits with the C-C distance bass - tweeter. Plus you probably shouldn't push the ND25FW-4 tweeter lower down in frequency then that.
It sounds nice , or ok, I must say. The tweeter, despite not being flush mounted, is good. The tweeter is the best thing about the TL boxes at the moment.
The 8 inch bass driver, well.Midrange ok. It doesn't work low down in the bass frequency. Hopefully it was a trade off for better/smoother FR higher up in frequency. Fairly high sensitivity is a plus though and it doesn't seem to have any nasty break ups. Bass output about like a medium to smaller "standard" ported speaker with 6.5 inch bass driver. Which of course, considering such large boxes, is not acceptable. A waste of space, so to speak.
Another challenge with TM boxes is to dampen them with just the right amount of stuffing. A lot of stuffing can be needed, which reduces their effectiveness. A topic for another thread.
By the way. Here's a picture of the Infinity bass driver next to a Seas 21 REX DD 8 inch bass driver (it didn't fit in the TL boxes, need to saw the mounting hole then... which I might do). You get what the lack of bass output is due to:
The ND25FW-4 tweeter will be popped into the ones mentioned in #33. This was just a test. Both of the tweeter, the crappy bass driver and the TL boxes.By the way, that Infinity bass driver in the sealed original speaker boxes, model Infinity 1500e, with subwoofer is a much better solution.:
....But I like the ND25FW-4 tweeter.
*Or if it can be considered a Voigt pipe/ Tapered quarter-wave pipe (TQWP) because it is built this way. This is what they look like. Another DIY built such speakers:
I have a couple of low power 8 inch vintage bass drivers, with pitiful small magnets, probably pretty high Fs and so on that were suitable to mount directly in the TL boxes. Tweeter, the subject of this thread, ND25FW-4 I mounted in them. They also fit directly in the TL boxes.
I use an active crossover for this test. Crossover point set to 2.6 kHz (24 db L-R filter). It fits with the C-C distance bass - tweeter. Plus you probably shouldn't push the ND25FW-4 tweeter lower down in frequency then that.
It sounds nice , or ok, I must say. The tweeter, despite not being flush mounted, is good. The tweeter is the best thing about the TL boxes at the moment.
The 8 inch bass driver, well.Midrange ok. It doesn't work low down in the bass frequency. Hopefully it was a trade off for better/smoother FR higher up in frequency. Fairly high sensitivity is a plus though and it doesn't seem to have any nasty break ups. Bass output about like a medium to smaller "standard" ported speaker with 6.5 inch bass driver. Which of course, considering such large boxes, is not acceptable. A waste of space, so to speak.
Another challenge with TM boxes is to dampen them with just the right amount of stuffing. A lot of stuffing can be needed, which reduces their effectiveness. A topic for another thread.
By the way. Here's a picture of the Infinity bass driver next to a Seas 21 REX DD 8 inch bass driver (it didn't fit in the TL boxes, need to saw the mounting hole then... which I might do). You get what the lack of bass output is due to:
The ND25FW-4 tweeter will be popped into the ones mentioned in #33. This was just a test. Both of the tweeter, the crappy bass driver and the TL boxes.By the way, that Infinity bass driver in the sealed original speaker boxes, model Infinity 1500e, with subwoofer is a much better solution.:
....But I like the ND25FW-4 tweeter.
*Or if it can be considered a Voigt pipe/ Tapered quarter-wave pipe (TQWP) because it is built this way. This is what they look like. Another DIY built such speakers:
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #39
Nope. There's not much I can do. The TL speaker box is built as it is. The Infinity bass driver is as it is. I can plug the TL port and make it sealed plus measure the bass FR (tomorrow). Then measure indoors, but my subwoofer goes down to 23 Hz (F3, measured) so I have little reference. In any case, it will give an indication of how far down in frequency the TL box/Infinity bass combo goes.
This is mostly a fun test project just because I got the TL boxes for free. I might saw, file a slightly bigger hole and pop in my Seas 21 REX DD 8 inch bass drivers. However, they are not really good to have crossover around 2.6 kHz with them because they have some break ups.
Seas 21 REX DD measured by Seas in a 20 liter sealed box:
If I continue to mess with bass drivers in that TL box, I think I'll start a new thread. This thread will address the ND25FW-4 tweeter.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #40
Now in two vintage Qln One boxes, which I rounded the baffle corners on. They sound good. Damn nice those Dayton WG tweeters.
Qln One original bass drivers is not much to hang on the Christmas tree. No x-max, so bass below 90Hz-100 Hz in the sealed boxes is nonexistent. Doesn't matter that much. I'll just add subwoofers and that'll solve it. Midrange is good though.
In addition, I'm going to fix two spacers and then mount my SB15NBAC30 woofers in the boxes. The volume for sealed (that the Qln One are) works well with the SB15NBAC30.
Crossover at 2.6 kHz, LR-4, with my active crossover. WiiM Mini's RoomFit is used. However, the results I get above 6 kHz seem completely insane.
(similar results with other speakers/tweeters). Probably something with my cell phone's microphone that messes up the results. I'm going to get a Dayton Audio iMM-6C measurement microphone to see if there's any difference. Everything below around 6 kHz, RoomFit corrects well, though.
I turned up the treble tone control a little on my amp that power up the tweeters because I saw when @ppataki measured the ND25FW-4 that it starts to roll off higher in frequency due to the WG's effects that boost lower down in the treble frequency register. To counteract that, a classic treble tone control MAY (not for sure) straighten out the falling curve.
Qln One original bass drivers is not much to hang on the Christmas tree. No x-max, so bass below 90Hz-100 Hz in the sealed boxes is nonexistent. Doesn't matter that much. I'll just add subwoofers and that'll solve it.
Midrange is good though. In addition, I'm going to fix two spacers and then mount my SB15NBAC30 woofers in the boxes. The volume for sealed (that the Qln One are) works well with the SB15NBAC30.
Crossover at 2.6 kHz, LR-4, with my active crossover. WiiM Mini's RoomFit is used. However, the results I get above 6 kHz seem completely insane.
(similar results with other speakers/tweeters). Probably something with my cell phone's microphone that messes up the results. I'm going to get a Dayton Audio iMM-6C measurement microphone to see if there's any difference. Everything below around 6 kHz, RoomFit corrects well, though.I turned up the treble tone control a little on my amp that power up the tweeters because I saw when @ppataki measured the ND25FW-4 that it starts to roll off higher in frequency due to the WG's effects that boost lower down in the treble frequency register. To counteract that, a classic treble tone control MAY (not for sure) straighten out the falling curve.
